Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

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SR
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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#61 Post by SR » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:40 am

A meritocracy would be nice :wave:

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mockbee
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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#62 Post by mockbee » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:56 am

Yeah, then we could all vote republican :rockon:

:lol:

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Hype
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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#63 Post by Hype » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:36 pm

SR wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:40 am
A meritocracy would be nice :wave:
We've been trying to figure that one out since Plato's Republic (and Zeno's Republic! And Thomas More's Utopia... and on and on...) -- Never going to happen. And it couldn't ever happen. There just isn't a way to set up a system that always only relies on merit alone. The difficulty of politics is maneuvering within on-the-ground power structures and figuring out ways to operate effectively at the wide social level for as long as possible, as stably as possible, doing or supporting or allowing as much good as possible. Managing the ways in which the stable and the good interact within societies at different levels (local, state, federal) and internationally is just insanely complicated. There's never been a way to be certain about any of this. Best we've got are vague rules of thumb and some ideas about what's right, and sometimes good smart people manage to get a little bit of power and do some good smart things.

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SR
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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#64 Post by SR » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:26 am

Hype wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:36 pm
SR wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:40 am
A meritocracy would be nice :wave:
We've been trying to figure that one out since Plato's Republic (and Zeno's Republic! And Thomas More's Utopia... and on and on...) -- Never going to happen. And it couldn't ever happen. There just isn't a way to set up a system that always only relies on merit alone. The difficulty of politics is maneuvering within on-the-ground power structures and figuring out ways to operate effectively at the wide social level for as long as possible, as stably as possible, doing or supporting or allowing as much good as possible. Managing the ways in which the stable and the good interact within societies at different levels (local, state, federal) and internationally is just insanely complicated. There's never been a way to be certain about any of this. Best we've got are vague rules of thumb and some ideas about what's right, and sometimes good smart people manage to get a little bit of power and do some good smart things.
Yes, I think it's impossible too. Not mentioned above are the will to power ideas of more than a few decent thinkers to which I subscribe. Too, I wasn't really addressing politics in general...simply the idea of free education where all these principles still apply, but I don't think it would limit opportunity as the discussion has implied. There will still be a small portion of the population that elite private schools draw from, but state schools could become a bit more diverse. My reference to a meritocracy was written in whimsy as a response to Bees previous post.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#65 Post by Hype » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:54 am

Yeah. No doubt. I guess I can add something on a slightly different note: Warren's idea is excellent. Higher education should be freely accessible for all those who can demonstrate aptitude. But, there is a complicating factor: higher education, especially in North America, has been on a corporatist bent for 30+ years. The upper-level administrators are treating universities as income-driven sources of tech/economic progress. The administrative class has been bloated, while tenure protections and new hires have dropped precipitously, while at the same time enrollments have massively increased. The latter is usually seen as a very, very good thing. And that's half true. But ask any professor: how many students in a class of a hundred in first year are actually prepared, at the most basic level, to do university-level studies. The answer is almost none of them. And that's largely because of changes/cuts to public education at the lower levels. A lot of these students are passed and kept enrolled solely for the tuition money. No one ever tells them to maybe think carefully about what they should really be doing. So one concern with free post-secondary education is that even if this removes part of the profit-motive for enrolling students who shouldn't be there, it doesn't necessarily remove these sorts of enrollment targets that could be tied directly to funding. For evidence of this, just look at Canada. Nearly all our universities are publicly funded. Yet they still have a "butts in seats" mentality as far as enrollment, because departmental funding is tied not to, say, need, or quality of research(ers), etc., but to how many students are enrolled. This makes it very difficult for the Humanities to compete with Engineering, Comp Sci., and the Life Sciences. For another case study: Stanford is cutting funding to its University Press, which is a fraction of what it pays its athletics department.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#66 Post by mockbee » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:51 am

Yup.
I have a degree from the Corporation of Oregon, '00.
They purged the "U" in 1999.
Here is $1.2 Trillion, now be on your merry way will make this much, much worse if there are not significant qualifiers to the plan.

That has to be a major concern of yours from an academic standpoint.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#67 Post by mockbee » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:34 pm

Image

"......however, not all of your precious angels have the aptitude for higher education."

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Hype
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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#68 Post by Hype » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:02 pm

mockbee wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:34 pm
Image

"......however, not all of your precious angels have the aptitude for higher education."
That's not a real quotation of anyone, is it? If you're paraphrasing something I said above, well... it's true isn't it? And I think we shouldn't denigrate not going to university. There's nothing wrong with the trades, or with service professions (especially health services). In fact, both of those are far, far more in need right now than people barely graduating from a 4 year bachelors program with a 2.5 GPA and a degree in English or History (that they didn't really get much out of or enjoy; never mind aptitude).

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#69 Post by mockbee » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:57 pm

Warren would never say that, but she should and add:
"...many of you were duped and in big trouble, I am truly sorry about that, and here is some money to relieve your burden."


This is what I am trying to get at. Higher education is no panacea, and in fact is an unnecessary burden to a ton of kids who shouldn't be there, and does nothing constructive for their future prospects. That is the case now, even when kids are putting themselves into a ton of financial stress. It's what they've been sold.

What parent/student would be so stupid to leave a free 4 year higher education degree on the table?
And what corporate university would be so stupid as to be more selective with easy money coming in?

Truly we have a misinformation crisis that created a huge financial crisis.

Trade, vocational and community colleges should be free. Maybe state schools are free as well, but have rigid enrollment caps and limitations on budget allocations. :noclue:

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#70 Post by Hype » Wed May 01, 2019 3:48 pm

What parent/student would be so stupid to leave a free 4 year higher education degree on the table?
The kind who doesn't blindly believe that the piece of paper (regardless of the value of the content required for attaining it) was required to live a good, comfortable, life.

The problem, especially after WW2, is not that the possibility of attaining post-secondary institutions was opened up to classes of people who previously would never have had the option. That was unquestionably a good thing (and it also resulted in a huge boom in hiring in Universities in the 60s). But concomitant with that was a persistent superstitious inversion of the causal connection between higher education and economic prospects. The data shows that higher education correlates with higher lifetime earnings, and on that basis, parents push their kids into it. But this gets things backwards.

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chaos
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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#71 Post by chaos » Fri May 03, 2019 3:56 pm

It looks like Bill De Blasio is throwing his hat into the ring next week.



Image
Who are the 2020 US Democratic presidential candidates?
The pool of candidates vying for their party's nomination in 2020 is among the largest and most diverse in US history.
2 May 2019


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/ ... 57543.html


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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#72 Post by chaos » Sat May 11, 2019 6:39 am


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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#73 Post by mockbee » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:38 pm

Bill Maher nailed it for 2020. :wave:


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