A logical approach to suicide

[Bandit72]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/brill ... 88778.html

A BRILLIANT schoolboy shot himself in the head after carefully calculating the benefits of life and deciding it was not worth living, an inquest was told yesterday.

Dario Iacoponi, 15, a pupil at the London Oratory in Fulham, west London, which is attended by Tony Blair's two sons, Euan, 14, and Nicky, 12, kept a diary of his philosophical thoughts on life in the two months leading up to his death. The Oratory is one of the top Roman Catholic schools in the country.

After weighing up the pros and cons, he decided to commit suicide and planned it meticulously. He taught himself to use his father's shotgun and worked out how to fire it with a wooden spoon. He then waited until neither of his parents was at home before carrying out the plan last month.

Dr John Burton, the West London Coroner, said it was clearly a considered process and Dario "came down on the side of suicide".

The inquest was told that the teenager was a brilliant pupil who had already passed six GCSEs at A* or A grades a year early. He played the violin and piano and was hoping to study law at Yale or Harvard.

But a darker side to his character emerged in diaries found by police. They spoke of his difficulties in coping with life, although there was little, or no mention, of any specific problem such as bullying.

Dario, an only child, was found by a 20-year-old lodger at the family's home in Ealing, west London. He had a shotgun by his side.

His father, Pietro, a translator, was in Switzerland on business, and his mother, Saleni, a teacher, was at an amateur dramatics class.

Inspector Colin Nursey, who found five diaries covering the last year of Dario's life, said there was a reference in them contemplating suicide. "He would not leave a note, he was very specific about that," he said.

Neither parent was in court, but Nadia Taylor, a family friend for the past 15 years, told the inquest that Dario was "always a very sociable and very friendly person". She added: "We are all very shocked. It all came as a surprise to us that he felt this way."

But Dr Burton said he could see no other conclusion than that Dario had taken his own life. "He has made it clear that he did so. That is the only verdict that I can return.

"He was quite stoical about it. He did not fear death. He decided on balance that life is not good and points out that the mathematics he has used are indisputable."

Dario's headmaster, John McIntosh, has said he was baffled and the school shocked. "He was an extremely able boy and he got on well with other pupils and his teachers and was extremely happy at school."

[Mescal]

And where were his parents at?

Just not enough mommy and daddy love

[Larry B.]

I can understand him 100%. Not that he cared. Suicide is simply the best choice for some people. Life has no intrinsic value. Either you find it worth living or you don't.

[Bandit72]

I guess so. It still takes a lot of balls to kill yourself though. Maybe he used maths to get over that obstacle too.

[Artemis]

It's sad a person so young, who has barely lived life, has decided that life is not worth living.

Reading the description of the boy made me think of the young character, Paloma, in the book The Elegance of the Hedgehog by Muriel Barbery. From observing the adults and other people in her life she decides she does not want to have this banal and disgusting outcome for herself. Her situation changes and she decides that life is indeed worth living after all.

We are in the center of Paris, in an elegant apartment building inhabited by bourgeois families. Renée, the concierge, is witness to the lavish but vacuous lives of her numerous employers. Outwardly she conforms to every stereotype of the concierge: fat, cantankerous, addicted to television. Yet, unbeknownst to her employers, Renée is a cultured autodidact who adores art, philosophy, music, and Japanese culture. With humor and intelligence she scrutinizes the lives of the building's tenants, who for their part are barely aware of her existence.

Then there's Paloma, a twelve-year-old genius. She is the daughter of a tedious parliamentarian, a talented and startlingly lucid child who has decided to end her life on the sixteenth of June, her thirteenth birthday. Until then she will continue behaving as everyone expects her to behave: a mediocre pre-teen high on adolescent subculture, a good but not an outstanding student, an obedient if obstinate daughter.

Paloma and Renée hide both their true talents and their finest qualities from a world they suspect cannot or will not appreciate them. They discover their kindred souls when a wealthy Japanese man named Ozu arrives in the building. Only he is able to gain Paloma's trust and to see through Renée's timeworn disguise to the secret that haunts her. This is a moving, funny, triumphant novel that exalts the quiet victories of the inconspicuous among us.

[LJF]

quiter, lame, and stupid

[Jasper]

quiter, lame, and stupid

He was probably smart enough to spell "quitter" correctly.

It's not like he gives a shit about any of our opinions. He does not exist. I agree with Bandit72 - the kid had balls of steel. Life's ultimately pointless, especially if you decide it's not worth it. The only complication is the grieving relatives. I'd have a tough time offing myself while my parents are still alive. Not that I've felt like offing myself lately.

[LJF]

quiter, lame, and stupid

He was probably smart enough to spell "quitter" correctly.

It's not like he gives a shit about any of our opinions. He does not exist. I agree with Bandit72 - the kid had balls of steel. Life's ultimately pointless, especially if you decide it's not worth it. The only complication is the grieving relatives. I'd have a tough time offing myself while my parents are still alive. Not that I've felt like offing myself lately.

thanks for the spell check. I'd say it's easier to quit then to deal with the issues that you have and leave friends and family to deal with it. It's a very selfish act. Looks like Junior Seau thought it was time to say good bye also.

[SR]

I highly reccommend Albert Camus' "The Myth of Sysyphus" to anyone who doesn't understand what this article assumed about this adolecent.

Wendy O Williams suicide note; Twas a rad woman..


I don’t believe that people should take their own lives without deep and thoughtful reflection over a considerable period of time. I do believe strongly, however, that the right to do so is one of the most fundamental rights that anyone in a free society should have. For me, much of the world makes no sense, but my feelings about what I am doing ring loud and clear to an inner ear and a place where there is no self, only calm.

[Hype]

The Stoics famously endorsed suicide, but only for the Sage (the most rational human, and only in specific circumstances).
They (the anti-stoics) made Seneca do it.

Death itself isn't wrong, but the problem is that comitting suicide requires suicidal thinking, and suicidal thinking is never reasonable. (Because none of us are perfect reasoners, nor are we trained to be immune to rash emotions).

Voluntary euthanasia is conceptually distinct from suicide.
Suicidal thinking generally has the partial logical form: I am not happy/I am in [mental] pain. I cannot see this changing in the future. Therefore the solution is to end my life.
The middle step is the problem. In voluntary euthanasia cases, the middle step is reasonable just in case the person has an untreatable terminal or debilitating illness. In suicidal thinking it is usally a mistaken assertion made because of PTSD, depression, etc.

[LJF]

I highly reccommend Albert Camus' "The Myth of Sysyphus" to anyone who doesn't understand what this article assumed about this adolecent.

Wendy O Williams suicide note; Twas a rad woman..


I don’t believe that people should take their own lives without deep and thoughtful reflection over a considerable period of time. I do believe strongly, however, that the right to do so is one of the most fundamental rights that anyone in a free society should have. For me, much of the world makes no sense, but my feelings about what I am doing ring loud and clear to an inner ear and a place where there is no self, only calm.

I'm good with people having the right to do it, but I still think it is a selfish act. In the end it really fucks the people that are left behind. They have to deal with it.

You have wonder if their last thoughts are why the fuck did I just do that.

[LJF]

The Stoics famously endorsed suicide, but only for the Sage (the most rational human, and only in specific circumstances).
They (the anti-stoics) made Seneca do it.

Death itself isn't wrong, but the problem is that comitting suicide requires suicidal thinking, and suicidal thinking is never reasonable. (Because none of us are perfect reasoners, nor are we trained to be immune to rash emotions).

Voluntary euthanasia is conceptually distinct from suicide.
Suicidal thinking generally has the partial logical form: I am not happy/I am in [mental] pain. I cannot see this changing in the future. Therefore the solution is to end my life.
The middle step is the problem. In voluntary euthanasia cases, the middle step is reasonable just in case the person has an untreatable terminal or debilitating illness. In suicidal thinking it is usally a mistaken assertion made because of PTSD, depression, etc.

I agree. I also think in those cases the person doesn't leave people trying to understand why & how this happened. That is my big problem with suicide, you decide to quit, but then leave everyone else to deal with your shit.

[Hype]

Well, I actually don't think people who are suicidal 'decide' to end their life. (I don't think there's such a thing as 'free will', though...)
People who are suicidal are at the mercy of very strong emotions. We should try to understand this, and find solutions to it.

[LJF]

Well, I actually don't think people who are suicidal 'decide' to end their life. (I don't think there's such a thing as 'free will', though...)
People who are suicidal are at the mercy of very strong emotions. We should try to understand this, and find solutions to it.

I think they make that decision to do it, but I also think a large number regret it. That's what I meant when I was saying how many as they take their last breath think I made a mistake doing this.

They decide to but most probably aren't of sound judgement at that point.

[Hype]

Well, I actually don't think people who are suicidal 'decide' to end their life. (I don't think there's such a thing as 'free will', though...)
People who are suicidal are at the mercy of very strong emotions. We should try to understand this, and find solutions to it.

I think they make that decision to do it, but I also think a large number regret it. That's what I meant when I was saying how many as they take their last breath think I made a mistake doing this.

They decide to but most probably aren't of sound judgement at that point.

But this supposes that they can 'decide' not to do it just as easily. They cannot.

[chaos]

There was a program that aired on Frontline a few years ago called The Suicide Tourist. A man dying of ALS, Criag Ewert, travelled to Switzerland since physician assisted suicide is legal there. It is an emotionally gripping documentary. It is hard to watch since it becomes obvious that Ewert is afraid and does not really want to die yet. He feels as though he has no choice because the longer he waits, the more likely it is that he will lose his mental functions which will then prevent him from exercising his option to end his life. I do not remember the details as to why he could not simply put his wishes in writing so the procedure could be carried out once he reached a certain point.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... opsis.html

I am dying. … There is no sense in trying to deny that fact," 59-year-old Craig Ewert says of his rapid deterioration just months after being diagnosed with ALS, a motor neuron disorder often referred to as Lou Gehrig's disease.

"I'm not tired of living," explains Ewert, a retired computer science professor. "I'm tired of the disease, but I'm not tired of living. And I still enjoy it enough that I'd like to continue. But the thing is that I really can't."

Directed by Academy Award-winning filmmaker John Zaritsky, The Suicide Tourist is a portrait of Ewert's final days as the Chicago native pursues a physician-assisted suicide in the one place where it's legal for foreigners to come to end their lives: Switzerland. With unique access to Dignitas, the Swiss nonprofit that has helped more than 1,000 people die since 1998, The Suicide Tourist follows Ewert as he debates the morality -- and confronts the reality -- of choosing to die before his disease further ravages his body, and he loses the option to die without unbearable suffering.

"At this point, I've got two choices," Ewert reasons. "If I go through with it, I die, as I must at some point. If I don't go through with it, my choice is essentially to suffer and to inflict suffering on my family and then die -- possibly in a way that is considerably more stressful and painful than this way. So I've got death, and I've got suffering and death. You know, this makes a whole lot of sense to me."

Assisted suicide is legal in Switzerland and several other countries, as well as in two U.S. states. But only Switzerland allows outsiders to come in to end their lives, leading to criticism about "suicide tourism." The Swiss government has recently countered by imposing greater restrictions on the sorts of cases Swiss doctors can approve for suicide, largely limiting it to those in the late stages of terminal illness who feel their lives have become unbearable -- the same standard that's in place in Oregon and Washington state.

"There are people who will look at this and say: 'No. Suicide is wrong. God has forbidden it. You cannot play God and take your own life.'" Craig Ewert anticipates some of the objections to the act he's preparing to carry out. "But you know what? This ventilator is playing God. If I had lived without access to technology, chances are I would be dead now."

As Ewert journeys through Switzerland and is wheeled into the Zurich apartment rented by Dignitas where he will drink the lethal sedative that will end his life, his wife, Mary, stands by his side. She is there to kiss him goodbye and wish him a "safe journey" as the medication takes hold and his eyes close for the final time. "In a sense, I lost Craig six months ago as he was," Mary Ewert explains. "[These last months] we probably had more of one another than maybe in the past. ... You know, there may have been some people who still think, well, I wouldn't have done that, or he shouldn't have done that, or something. But if they felt that way, they didn't say anything to me about it. … I [still] feel his presence. ..."

Read more: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... z1tpVUqu7u

Video: http://video.pbs.org/video/1430431984/

[Pure Method]

Hype, you bring up free will - I am curious, what are your views on Catherine Malabou ? - specifically her book What do we do with our Brains?, as it's the only one I have read.

[LJF]

Well, I actually don't think people who are suicidal 'decide' to end their life. (I don't think there's such a thing as 'free will', though...)
People who are suicidal are at the mercy of very strong emotions. We should try to understand this, and find solutions to it.

I think they make that decision to do it, but I also think a large number regret it. That's what I meant when I was saying how many as they take their last breath think I made a mistake doing this.

They decide to but most probably aren't of sound judgement at that point.

But this supposes that they can 'decide' not to do it just as easily. They cannot.

I guess we disagree on this. Either way they are making a decision, so therefore they do "decide" and yes I also think they can decide not to.

[Hype]

Hype, you bring up free will - I am curious, what are your views on Catherine Malabou ? - specifically her book What do we do with our Brains?, as it's the only one I have read.

I've never heard of her. Based on the title alone, I want to ask: "What are the 'we' that do things with 'our' brains?" (After looking her up, I can see why I've never heard of her. I don't do French philosophy. She appears to be working on a book on Spinoza... but the French Spinoza people are often weird -- I mean, weirder than the Anglophone ones...)

My work focuses on causality and modality with respect to explanation and human action. I take 'free choice' or 'free decision' to be incoherent if it is taken to mean that the choice/decision is not determined by the antecedent universe. The reason for this is simply that if this is the case, then the choice/decision is inexplicable. But this is absurd.

[chaos]

It's sad a person so young, who has barely lived life, has decided that life is not worth living.

Reading the description of the boy made me think of the young character, Paloma, in the book The Elegance of the Hedgehog by Muriel Barbery. From observing the adults and other people in her life she decides she does not want to have this banal and disgusting outcome for herself. Her situation changes and she decides that life is indeed worth living after all.

We are in the center of Paris, in an elegant apartment building inhabited by bourgeois families. Renée, the concierge, is witness to the lavish but vacuous lives of her numerous employers. Outwardly she conforms to every stereotype of the concierge: fat, cantankerous, addicted to television. Yet, unbeknownst to her employers, Renée is a cultured autodidact who adores art, philosophy, music, and Japanese culture. With humor and intelligence she scrutinizes the lives of the building's tenants, who for their part are barely aware of her existence.

Then there's Paloma, a twelve-year-old genius. She is the daughter of a tedious parliamentarian, a talented and startlingly lucid child who has decided to end her life on the sixteenth of June, her thirteenth birthday. Until then she will continue behaving as everyone expects her to behave: a mediocre pre-teen high on adolescent subculture, a good but not an outstanding student, an obedient if obstinate daughter.

Paloma and Renée hide both their true talents and their finest qualities from a world they suspect cannot or will not appreciate them. They discover their kindred souls when a wealthy Japanese man named Ozu arrives in the building. Only he is able to gain Paloma's trust and to see through Renée's timeworn disguise to the secret that haunts her. This is a moving, funny, triumphant novel that exalts the quiet victories of the inconspicuous among us.

I had read reviews about this book when it came out. Your post reminded me of it so I put in a library request and will be picking it up tomorrow. Did you know there is also a movie? If so, have you (or any fellow posters) seen it?

Rotten Tomatoes gives it a fresh tomato http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_hedgehog/

[Artemis]

It's sad a person so young, who has barely lived life, has decided that life is not worth living.

Reading the description of the boy made me think of the young character, Paloma, in the book The Elegance of the Hedgehog by Muriel Barbery. From observing the adults and other people in her life she decides she does not want to have this banal and disgusting outcome for herself. Her situation changes and she decides that life is indeed worth living after all.

We are in the center of Paris, in an elegant apartment building inhabited by bourgeois families. Renée, the concierge, is witness to the lavish but vacuous lives of her numerous employers. Outwardly she conforms to every stereotype of the concierge: fat, cantankerous, addicted to television. Yet, unbeknownst to her employers, Renée is a cultured autodidact who adores art, philosophy, music, and Japanese culture. With humor and intelligence she scrutinizes the lives of the building's tenants, who for their part are barely aware of her existence.

Then there's Paloma, a twelve-year-old genius. She is the daughter of a tedious parliamentarian, a talented and startlingly lucid child who has decided to end her life on the sixteenth of June, her thirteenth birthday. Until then she will continue behaving as everyone expects her to behave: a mediocre pre-teen high on adolescent subculture, a good but not an outstanding student, an obedient if obstinate daughter.

Paloma and Renée hide both their true talents and their finest qualities from a world they suspect cannot or will not appreciate them. They discover their kindred souls when a wealthy Japanese man named Ozu arrives in the building. Only he is able to gain Paloma's trust and to see through Renée's timeworn disguise to the secret that haunts her. This is a moving, funny, triumphant novel that exalts the quiet victories of the inconspicuous among us.

I had read reviews about this book when it came out. Your post reminded me of it so I put in a library request and will be picking it up tomorrow. Did you know there is also a movie? If so, have you (or any fellow posters) seen it?

Rotten Tomatoes gives it a fresh tomato http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_hedgehog/

The book is excellent! It's actually one of my favourites. It starts off very depressing but soon you will love the main characters.

I hadn't heard about the movie version.

I read Gourmet Rhapsody by her too. It was good. I didn't enjoy it as much as Hedgehog, but really enjoyed the concept. The main character, who is a food critic is dying, and you learn about his life and him through his food memories- like an exquisite restaurant or a superb lemon tart. etc.

[Larry B.]

Death itself isn't wrong, but the problem is that comitting suicide requires suicidal thinking, and suicidal thinking is never reasonable.

I'd like to know the basis for this statement...

[Hype]

Death itself isn't wrong, but the problem is that comitting suicide requires suicidal thinking, and suicidal thinking is never reasonable.

I'd like to know the basis for this statement...

There are a bunch of reasons I hold that view. I can't go into much detail about them here (I'm supposed to be working on something at the moment...)

The simplest is just the general medical take on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal_ideation

This, in particular seems salient:

"risks associated with suicidality require an immediate focus on diminishing self-harming cognitions so as to ensure safety before attending to the underlying etiology of the behavior". A Psychological Distress scale known as the K10 was administered monthly to a random sample of individuals. According to the results among the 9.9% of individuals who reported "psychological distress (all categories)" 5.1% of the same participants reported suicidal ideation. Participants who scored "very high" on the Psychological Distress scale "were 77 times more likely to report suicidal ideation than those in the low category"

The basic argument goes something like this:
1. Rational (reasonable) thinking, though it may involve emotions, is calm, because it involves simply determining what the reasons one has really are, and thinking through one's actions in accordance with these reasons (in ways that do not involve obvious logical errors).
2. Given the above basic definition of suicidal ideation (imagining that one should commit suicide, not just mere thinking about suicide), and the associated warning signs of it, we have an ordinary common sense view that implies that suicidal ideation is caused by, and/or involves psychological distress.
3. Distress is a lack of calm.
4. Therefore thinking which comes about as a result of, or which involves, distress is not rational (even if in a non-distressed context some of the thoughts may be rational).
5. Therefore suicidal thinking is not rational.

Thoughts involving suicide, of course, can be rational. But 'suicidal thinking' is a specific pattern of thinking, rather than some set of propositions construed in a logical manner.

You may want to just read this article: http://www.aafp.org/afp/1999/0315/p1500.html
Some more evidence to support the connection between emotional distress and suicidal thinking:

It has been noted that antidepressants are more effective than placebo in decreasing suicidal ideation, and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors may act more rapidly in this regard than other agents.

[Larry B.]

Death itself isn't wrong, but the problem is that comitting suicide requires suicidal thinking, and suicidal thinking is never reasonable.

I'd like to know the basis for this statement...

There are a bunch of reasons I hold that view. I can't go into much detail about them here (I'm supposed to be working on something at the moment...)

The simplest is just the general medical take on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal_ideation

This, in particular seems salient:

"risks associated with suicidality require an immediate focus on diminishing self-harming cognitions so as to ensure safety before attending to the underlying etiology of the behavior". A Psychological Distress scale known as the K10 was administered monthly to a random sample of individuals. According to the results among the 9.9% of individuals who reported "psychological distress (all categories)" 5.1% of the same participants reported suicidal ideation. Participants who scored "very high" on the Psychological Distress scale "were 77 times more likely to report suicidal ideation than those in the low category"

The basic argument goes something like this:
1. Rational (reasonable) thinking, though it may involve emotions, is calm, because it involves simply determining what the reasons one has really are, and thinking through one's actions in accordance with these reasons (in ways that do not involve obvious logical errors).
2. Given the above basic definition of suicidal ideation (imagining that one should commit suicide, not just mere thinking about suicide), and the associated warning signs of it, we have an ordinary common sense view that implies that suicidal ideation is caused by, and/or involves psychological distress.
3. Distress is a lack of calm.
4. Therefore thinking which comes about as a result of, or which involves, distress is not rational (even if in a non-distressed context some of the thoughts may be rational).
5. Therefore suicidal thinking is not rational.

Thoughts involving suicide, of course, can be rational. But 'suicidal thinking' is a specific pattern of thinking, rather than some set of propositions construed in a logical manner.

Thank you for that information, pretty neat.

However, I think point 2 is somewhat strange, since common sense comes into play. Common sense says life has some sort of intrinsic value, when it actually doesn't. The value of life, of one's own existence, of one's experiences, of life's beauty and all of that are pure human inventions.

What I mean to say that even though most likely 95% of suicidal thinking is brought by lack of reasoning, there are cases in which the decision is weighed against some other options, logic (real logic, not I diez because i sadz boo hoo logic) comes into play, and ending one's life genuinely seems like the best course of action. Thus, there would be cases in which suicidal thinking is in fact reasonable.

[Matz]

suicidal thinking may not be rational, I can buy that, but for some people it's still their best option. It's a harsh thing to say and I don't like saying it, but I think it's the truth