Teachers sleeping with students...smh

[Essence_Smith]

So as some may have heard there is another situation like this that has allegedly occurred at a Brooklyn high school...its making the round on national news and I've seen it on UK sites as well...this is a subject that as I have kids of my own I've thought about and kinda dismissed...but what makes this particular situation different for me is the fact that the teacher being accused is actually a friend of mine from high school...I knew her pretty well back in the day and if she did it I guess she'll get what she has coming... she has a young child so I feel bad for her kid...just very bugged out to see a media circus around someone you know and for something negative. Regarding the act itself, its pretty fucked up...pretty much any adult taking advantage that way is wrong...I don't see it any other way, and I don't wanna judge til the facts come in, but it doesn't look like she was acting approriately in any way...a few thousand texts to student, friending them on facebook, etc...I dunno man...

All that being said in my high school rumors flew around about a male teacher and female student who supposedly were fooling around on or senior trip...after we graduated he stopped teaching there and they hooked up as a couple...these kinds of thing probably happen a lot more often than we think...what are your thoughts?

[Hype]

The general rule is there for perfectly good reasons. As you say, 'taking advantage is wrong'. The fact that it sometimes works out where the relationship was genuine doesn't excuse it since, in fact, the honest route is to give up the position of authority first and then pursue the relationship.

[creep]

All that being said in my high school rumors flew around about a male teacher and female student who supposedly were fooling around on or senior trip...after we graduated he stopped teaching there and they hooked up as a couple...these kinds of thing probably happen a lot more often than we think...what are your thoughts?

it happened quite a bit in my high school. you just got away with it back then. with technology the way it is today you pretty much always get caught now.

[creep]

for some reason i am always curious on how the teacher looks so i googled it and saw a few things about the story.

Teacher Erin Sayar allegedly exchanged an astonishing 3,856 text messages over a 17-day period with her student

guilty

Now angry husband Jimmy Lathrop 'looking for divorce lawyer'

of course

[Essence_Smith]

All that being said in my high school rumors flew around about a male teacher and female student who supposedly were fooling around on or senior trip...after we graduated he stopped teaching there and they hooked up as a couple...these kinds of thing probably happen a lot more often than we think...what are your thoughts?

it happened quite a bit in my high school. you just got away with it back then. with technology the way it is today you pretty much always get caught now.

One thing in one of the articles I read was that the kid was able to describe tattoos my friend had in intimate places...I've seen those tattoos too, as she'd posted pics of them on facebook...

Yeah there were situations with the security guards I always heard about in high school and we had one guy in elementary that openly invited young girls to sit on his lap for good grades...which they did...smh...I just wonder if perhaps the standards should be higher or the rules need to be stricter about teacher student contact? I mean what the fuck's up with the screening process? Do they get a psyche evalution or anything of the sort?

[Essence_Smith]

for some reason i am always curious on how the teacher looks so i googled it and saw a few things about the story.

Teacher Erin Sayar allegedly exchanged an astonishing 3,856 text messages over a 17-day period with her student

guilty

Now angry husband Jimmy Lathrop 'looking for divorce lawyer'

of course

Yeah I didn't wanna do all that...and she's certainly got more flattering photos floating about...the damn near 4,000 texts is CRAZY...when they go through the content of those I think its a wrap if she did it...as far as her husband goes I can understand completely but imo you stand by til the case is tried...and the "friends" that let that out to the press are dicks...if he did express that it was in confidence or he'd have said it to the press himself...they have a cute young daughter thats maybe 3...that's who I think about most in these situations...

[creep]

Yeah I didn't wanna do all that...and she's certainly got more flattering photos floating about...the damn near 4,000 texts is CRAZY...when they go through the content of those I think its a wrap if she did it...as far as her husband goes I can understand completely but imo you stand by til the case is tried...and the "friends" that let that out to the press are dicks...if he did express that it was in confidence or he'd have said it to the press himself...they have a cute young daughter thats maybe 3...that's who I think about most in these situations...

whether she slept with him or not she should never teach again just because of the texting. it's easy to say that you would stand by her but with that shit all over the press i would have a tough time doing it.

[Essence_Smith]

Yeah I didn't wanna do all that...and she's certainly got more flattering photos floating about...the damn near 4,000 texts is CRAZY...when they go through the content of those I think its a wrap if she did it...as far as her husband goes I can understand completely but imo you stand by til the case is tried...and the "friends" that let that out to the press are dicks...if he did express that it was in confidence or he'd have said it to the press himself...they have a cute young daughter thats maybe 3...that's who I think about most in these situations...

whether she slept with him or not she should never teach again just because of the texting. it's easy to say that you would stand by her but with that shit all over the press i would have a tough time doing it.

Honestly I'm hoping she didn't sleep with the kid and its being blown out of proportion cause it is a friend...that being said the texting, etc on its own is just wrong...but if it were someone else I'd probably be with everyone else in the 3,000 texts = guilty camp as well...as far as the husband and the marriage thing goes, personally the worst time to start talking about divorce is when your spouse is in legal trouble embarassing as the situation may be to you or them...its supposed to be in good times and bad ya know? I've been in some shit in my life and I know that if my wife had decided to leave me at those moments it'd have been pretty tough making it through em...I'm just saying at least wait til the smoke clears for that to be the word on the street...

[Mescal]

Student - teacher relations happen everywhere, and all over the world.

I don't understand why everybody is so surprised.

[kv]

ess going to "smh" makes me laugh my ass off...it was made for you officer!

[kv]

Student - teacher relations happen everywhere, and all over the world.

I don't understand why everybody is so surprised.

[Larry B.]

Those 4,000 messages could well be WhatsApp messages, which makes it sound not-so-terrible, in my opinion. If you talk to someone via WhatsApp 10 times a day with 20 messages every time, you get around 4k messages in 17 days. Yes, it's a lot, but not psychotically excessive, IMO.

The general rule is there for perfectly good reasons. As you say, 'taking advantage is wrong'. The fact that it sometimes works out where the relationship was genuine doesn't excuse it since, in fact, the honest route is to give up the position of authority first and then pursue the relationship.

I agree 100%.

I have two somewhat similar experiences in terms of authority. One, when I started a relationship with my direct supervisor in a company, last year. I didn't want any sort of conflict for her, so I resigned (hence eliminating her position of authority) and then we started something.

The second is more directly related to this thread. I used to teach this girl who was 17 (and whom I had known since she was like... 8 or 9.) I was 24. We were totally into each other, and not just physically. We talked, I stopped teaching her and we started a relationship that lasted almost two years. It was beautiful.

I don't approve of teachers fucking their students because 'they can' or because they're horny. But if they find someone special and they believe it's worth it... dude, resign and go for it. Don't fuck your student if he's your student. It's not ethical.

[creep]

Those 4,000 messages could well be WhatsApp messages, which makes it sound not-so-terrible, in my opinion. If you talk to someone via WhatsApp 10 times a day with 20 messages every time, you get around 4k messages in 17 days. Yes, it's a lot, but not psychotically excessive, IMO.

it mentioned in the story that they were deleting the messages from their phone so the number of messages was obtained from the cellular company. that is 227 texts a day. one text is too much though. there are just certain things that you can't do as a teacher.

[Artemis]

I have a few friends who are teachers and they do not get involved with the students in any way. I mean, they do not "friend" them on fb, or give any optiions for contact beyond the face-to-face at school. So, no giving out phone numbers, email addresses, etc. It's not worth the trouble and loss of reputation. Like with the woman ES posted about. Even if the allegations are false, her career as a teacher is damaged forever.

[LJF]

I look at it this way if both are over 18 I don't see the problem. Student and teacher relationship for whatever reason sound worse then if co workers date. I guess cause most times it involves the student being under 18, that is where I see the issue.

I have no problem with co workers dating and don't think anyone needs to resign. Even if one is the boss that can cause issues, but most companies are good if the relationship is brought to the attention of HR.

[Hype]

I look at it this way if both are over 18 I don't see the problem. Student and teacher relationship for whatever reason sound worse then if co workers date. I guess cause most times it involves the student being under 18, that is where I see the issue.

I have no problem with co workers dating and don't think anyone needs to resign. Even if one is the boss that can cause issues, but most companies are good if the relationship is brought to the attention of HR.

It's not about the age difference, it's about the power difference. Co-workers are at the same power-level (hence "co-").

[LJF]

Sorry allow me to clarify, what I was trying to say. As long it is with two consenting adults to me that is fine. Companies don't want it because they fear lawsuits if something goes wrong. One person can say that their boss forced them to or whatever along those lines. That is why I said if you bring the relationship to the attention of HR, then the company gets both people to sign a waiver saying the relationship is between two consenting adults. That way there can't be any legal action later if relationship ends.

[Hype]

Sorry allow me to clarify, what I was trying to say. As long it is with two consenting adults to me that is fine. Companies don't want it because they fear lawsuits if something goes wrong. One person can say that their boss forced them to or whatever along those lines. That is why I said if you bring the relationship to the attention of HR, then the company gets both people to sign a waiver saying the relationship is between two consenting adults. That way there can't be any legal action later if relationship ends.

I don't think it should be about lawsuits. I also don't think you can give genuine consent to someone who has authority over you. Even if you do so and you think it's fine, you've undermined something of fairly serious import: e.g., take an 18 year old decent looking female who gets caught speeding. The traffic cop subtly implies that he'll tear up the ticket in exchange for a sexual relationship of some sort. The female speeder, it turns out, happens to find the cop attractive, and so believes that this is win-win. She consents, or rather, thinks she consents, and, perhaps out of sheer luck, later, they end up in a relationship (and it could just as easily not have, or the cop may have reneged on the promise to tear up the ticket).

Your view takes it that because these were 'consenting adults', nothing wrong happened here. I'm suggesting that, in fact, no true consent can even be given while the power imbalance exists. We may ignore that fact when things happen to work out, and we tolerate a certain amount of corruption out of necessity, but that does not make these things right. The cop's abuse of authority may be benign in this case, in spite of being quite obviously unjust/unfair to everyone else, but it could just as easily turn malignant. It's not wrong just in case it turns malignant, it's wrong because there was thwarting of duty in the first place.

Teachers, politicians, police, etc., cannot justifiably act arbitrarily or exceptionally toward some of the people they are in the service of without undermining their position.

Of course it goes on, and of course sometimes we don't really care, or may even tolerate or encourage the more benign side of it, but that's not the same thing as it being morally justifiable (i.e., a good thing).

[LJF]

I wouldn't encourage relationships with someone that is your boss because it can lead to problems, but if two people feel they can handle it why is there a problem. Again two consenting adults.

The cop situation is different in that case it is in the moment, fuck me and I'll take care of your ticket. The is no history between those two people. In most cases of official romance there is a history between the people. It started as friendship and as they got to know each other it became more.

As an adult you have to take responsibility for your actions and if you agree that the relationship wasn't forced on you if things go badly deal with it. Don't turn around and say that I've now changed my mind. That is why companies ask to know of such relationship and have people sign forms. This way they are out of the picture legally. Yes most if not all companies did't approve of relationships with a boss, but this is the real world and that stuff happens. When it is between two consenting adults they should be able to have it and deal with it.

[Hype]

I'm just pointing out that it's one thing to deal with the fact that it does go on, it's another to say that it's good/fine/moral/ok/permissible, or whatever.

In fact, I'd say that there being a history between, say, a boss and an employee, or a teacher and a student is WORSE than the cop-speeder one-off thing (that may turn into a relationship), because then it's a case of repeated and consistently flouted boundaries and a failure to understand why the authority gap is there to begin with. And frankly, it's always the responsibility of the person in authority not to engage in this flouting, because they're the one with the power. That imbalance is part of the reason why it can't ever be a case of equal consent. Once the relationship of authority is ended, then it can be proper consent.

I'm not sure why you don't see the force of the argument that it can't be true consent if there's a power imbalance. There's a reason why contracts may require third-party arbitration.

[LJF]

I'm just pointing out that it's one thing to deal with the fact that it does go on, it's another to say that it's good/fine/moral/ok/permissible, or whatever.

In fact, I'd say that there being a history between, say, a boss and an employee, or a teacher and a student is WORSE than the cop-speeder one-off thing (that may turn into a relationship), because then it's a case of repeated and consistently flouted boundaries and a failure to understand why the authority gap is there to begin with. And frankly, it's always the responsibility of the person in authority not to engage in this flouting, because they're the one with the power. That imbalance is part of the reason why it can't ever be a case of equal consent. Once the relationship of authority is ended, then it can be proper consent.

I'm not sure why you don't see the force of the argument that it can't be true consent if there's a power imbalance. There's a reason why contracts may require third-party arbitration.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree. I don't encourage these type of relationships, but we are human and if two people find each other attractive and want a relationship go for it. Then be willing to deal with whatever happens. It's a case of taking responsibility and if it doesn't work out don't try to turn around and say no they forced me. I look at it as both people have equal power in the relationship and starting the relationship. People need to be responsible for their actions if both say they consent, well then they consent.

You always have the power to say no and if they person continues to force the point then report it. The company will deal with it. So I think both people have equal power.

The contract by the company is nothing more then the company covering it's ass from a lawsuit, so at a later date someone doesn't try to take revenge.

[Hype]

I find it really interesting that the libertarian/communitarian dichotomy comes out in moral discussions as much as it does in political ones. We're disagreeing, I think, in part because we fundamentally disagree about human nature and the interrelatedness of individuals and their relative power (i.e., freedom) with respect to self, other, and the institutional arrangements and power structures in which they are embedded (often from birth).

You always have the power to say no and if they person continues to force the point then report it. The company will deal with it. So I think both people have equal power.

So, I know you are assuming that the two parties are of 'legal age' (i.e., in most jurisdictions this means over 18, in some others, over 16, or over 21), but why is there something special about being a certain age (I mean specifically when it comes to these questionable cases of authority imbalance, obviously consent between peers is relatively unproblematic)? Do you really think there is a difference between a 13 year old who is raped by an older family member who threatens them and an eighteen year old who is taken advantage of by a high school teacher and similarly threatened?

Doesn't this seem just slightly arbitrary (and thus, even if pragmatic, also a bit problematic) to you?

I'll try another example. In Canada (at least, in Ontario) there are certain rights workers have that they CANNOT agree to give up. One of these is the right to overtime pay. In one place I worked, my boss started scheduling me to work more than 44 hours and week, and I said: "I will work this if you pay overtime." and they tried to claim it was "company policy" to "not pay overtime". I said: "That's not possible", because it's illegal. In fact, the policy was probably: "Don't give employees overtime hours", which doesn't say "Don't allow them to work many hours for regular pay". At any rate, the boss then tried to get people to sign a form indicating that they agreed not to be paid overtime hours if they worked over 44 hrs a week. I pointed him to the section of the Employment Standards Act that said that even if we signed that form, we had not given up that right, and he promptly forgot all about it. But the immigrant workers there did not know this, and possibly to this day are still working well over 44 hours a week for minimum wage.

The point is, it's simply not true that "You have the power to say no." When one person has authority over you, you are in no position to consent to a contract unless there are structures in place that level the playing field, (like labour laws that stipulate which contracts are valid).

[LJF]

Both examples you mention and completely different then what I was saying. I have always said two consenting adults. In your examples they aren't consenting people or adults.

[Hype]

Both examples you mention and completely different then what I was saying. I have always said two consenting adults. In your examples they aren't consenting people or adults.

We're disagreeing about whether they are consenting. I'm arguing that there's no difference between my cases and these other power/authority imbalanced cases. You're trying to say that in the cases of bosses/teachers sleeping with employees/students, it is (or rather, can involve) consent, but you haven't given a principled reason to agree with that (which would be one that differentiates them from these other cases in some clear way).

I am arguing that in cases in which one party has authority over the other, there can never be consent. (In the case of agreeing to work for a company in the first place, you have equal power, since there is nothing authoritative about the hiring manager's position in relation to you when you "sign the contract" (this, by the way, is a metaphor, though verbal agreements are often contractual). They cannot force you to agree or hold it against you if you don't. It is only after you have agreed to work for a company that some relationships become authoritative and thus coercive.

Since a teacher-student relationship is already in that authoritative mode, there can be no contractual agreement (i.e., no consent) to do anything beyond what the teacher-student relationship agreement constitutes in the first place (which is an agreement to teach, and to perform the functions of a student, to the best of your ability, and nothing more).
Same reason your boss can't fire you for not attending non-work-related functions. (I mean, he/she could, but it would be wrong to do so.)

[mockbee]

Both examples you mention and completely different then what I was saying. I have always said two consenting adults. In your examples they aren't consenting people or adults.

So you are saying the law should apply between two parties when someone wants it to apply, and not when they don't want it to apply?

Laws don't work that way.

They either apply or they don't, and who's to say when one party consents and when one party doesn't??? I guess there would have to be some extra written contract between a student/teacher saying, don't apply the law to us. That's a slippery slope. There needs to be a solid understanding of appropriate behavior, period.