Michael Brown

[SR]

Brown's parents and Sharpton on in 10. I hate Al Sharpton. He's a stupid man.

[Hype]

If the guy you're trying to apprehend is in your car window holding the door shut and trying to get your gun, it seems unlikely that you'd fail to apprehend him if you move the car ten or twenty feet to get the window closed so you can open the door.

But it doesn't really matter what hindsight seems to recommend, since what did happen was both stupid and fatal.

[Essence_Smith]

Some of you guys tend to lose the point...Michael Brown whether this particular situation was a "justifiable" homicide or not is one person in a LONG ass line of black men who've managed to get killed by police while unarmed... we have two cases currently going on in NY, one in which a rookie cop's gun "accidentally" went off on a stairwell in a housing project, when regulation states he should have had the gun holstered...bottom line as I said before as much as people want to look at the "facts" and come to the defense of the police and say it's not about race, it happens far far too often. We had a black woman killed because her car broke down and she knocked the wrong person's door for help...kids coming home from the corner store, people reaching for ID getting killed...it goes on and on and on and you guys are far too intelligent to not know that something is clearly wrong here. Why are people so scared of unarmed black folks? Why are black people so mad at the police? There's always a bigger situation behind everything like this in America and I think people need to look at not just this particular situation, but the climate in America that allows it to happen so often with NO repercussions for people law enforcement.

I wonder if you understand just how condescending this is, not to mention irrational. The pre-existing institutionalized racism that allows for these atrocities you detail should have absolutely nothing to do with evaluating each case individually. That would be an injustice to the officers in any individual case.....this one being the MB case. This thread isn't addressing what you say is the "point we are missing". It's addressing the Michael Brown shooting.

I'm not saying it all goes out the window, we shouldn't look at it or it doesn't matter... and I hope you understand the point wasn't to come across and condescending, etc...it's just frustrating that the same pattern tends to happen in these cases...usually there is some attempt to villainize the person who was killed, etc. then people go above and beyond to defend the police, etc...everyone supposedly is innocent before being proven guilty and I respect the law of the land in general. I am always hopeful that a reasonable outcome will occur in any of these cases, but as I'm sure you're aware people are frustrated by seeing this happen again and again and it becomes hard to be objective all the time. If that comes across as irrational so be it...though I'm sure I've never mentioned it here, I've had NYPD put a gun to my head for nothing other than being a kid in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't hold it against people everytime I see a cop car go by but some aren't nearly as clear-headed as I am...I just hope you guys understand it isn't easy even if you're doing the right thing and though I don't condone the rioting etc people have a right to be as angry as they are...even me

[SR]

Some of you guys tend to lose the point...Michael Brown whether this particular situation was a "justifiable" homicide or not is one person in a LONG ass line of black men who've managed to get killed by police while unarmed... we have two cases currently going on in NY, one in which a rookie cop's gun "accidentally" went off on a stairwell in a housing project, when regulation states he should have had the gun holstered...bottom line as I said before as much as people want to look at the "facts" and come to the defense of the police and say it's not about race, it happens far far too often. We had a black woman killed because her car broke down and she knocked the wrong person's door for help...kids coming home from the corner store, people reaching for ID getting killed...it goes on and on and on and you guys are far too intelligent to not know that something is clearly wrong here. Why are people so scared of unarmed black folks? Why are black people so mad at the police? There's always a bigger situation behind everything like this in America and I think people need to look at not just this particular situation, but the climate in America that allows it to happen so often with NO repercussions for people law enforcement.

I wonder if you understand just how condescending this is, not to mention irrational. The pre-existing institutionalized racism that allows for these atrocities you detail should have absolutely nothing to do with evaluating each case individually. That would be an injustice to the officers in any individual case.....this one being the MB case. This thread isn't addressing what you say is the "point we are missing". It's addressing the Michael Brown shooting.

I'm not saying it all goes out the window, we shouldn't look at it or it doesn't matter... and I hope you understand the point wasn't to come across and condescending, etc...it's just frustrating that the same pattern tends to happen in these cases...usually there is some attempt to villainize the person who was killed, etc. then people go above and beyond to defend the police, etc...everyone supposedly is innocent before being proven guilty and I respect the law of the land in general. I am always hopeful that a reasonable outcome will occur in any of these cases, but as I'm sure you're aware people are frustrated by seeing this happen again and again and it becomes hard to be objective all the time. If that comes across as irrational so be it...though I'm sure I've never mentioned it here, I've had NYPD put a gun to my head for nothing other than being a kid in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't hold it against people everytime I see a cop car go by but some aren't nearly as clear-headed as I am...I just hope you guys understand it isn't easy even if you're doing the right thing and though I don't condone the rioting etc people have a right to be as angry as they are...even me

Of course I understand the frustration. Do you really think I don't, or do I just represent people who don't because I am white? The reason this particular case is so fucking important is because it is dissimilar to the other blatant injustices to which you refer.

[Essence_Smith]

My greatest fear SR, is raising a little boy in a climate that doesn't appear to be getting any better in terms of how law enforcement handles people of color...or people in general for that matter.

For every half decent cop out there it feels like there are ten dickheads who perpetuate the drama. All respect due to you because I know you get it, but I think I'm going to have to bow out of this one because the disappointment is that while in this case there was a clear reason for the police to have taken Michael Brown into custody there are many where there is little in the way of probably cause and kids still get killed. It's fine to look at this particular situation and have a discourse, but personally I'm a bit too emotional to handle the back and forth, and that's very rare for me...there are TWO cases like this currently going on in NY...it's been out of hand for a while and feels like it's getting worse

[SR]

My greatest fear SR, is raising a little boy in a climate that doesn't appear to be getting any better in terms of how law enforcement handles people of color...or people in general for that matter.

For every half decent cop out there it feels like there are ten dickheads who perpetuate the drama. All respect due to you because I know you get it, but I think I'm going to have to bow out of this one because the disappointment is that while in this case there was a clear reason for the police to have taken Michael Brown into custody there are many where there is little in the way of probably cause and kids still get killed. It's fine to look at this particular situation and have a discourse, personally I'm a bit too emotional to handle the back and forth...there are TWO cases like this currently going on in NY...it's been out of hand for a while and feels like it's getting worse

[SR]

My greatest fear SR, is raising a little boy in a climate that doesn't appear to be getting any better in terms of how law enforcement handles people of color...or people in general for that matter.

He's got a advantage with a pop like you.

[Hype]

This is a tangential point, but I think really important: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/augu ... 80614.html

Stanford psychology researchers Rebecca Hetey and Jennifer Eberhardt found that when white people were told about these racial disparities, they reported being more afraid of crime and more likely to support the kinds of punitive policies that exacerbate the racial disparities.

[Essence_Smith]

My greatest fear SR, is raising a little boy in a climate that doesn't appear to be getting any better in terms of how law enforcement handles people of color...or people in general for that matter.

He's got a advantage with a pop like you.

Thank you my friend

[Hokahey]

The actual protestors did what I expected last night. Unfortunately, pockets of assholes take advantage of any situation to fuck shit up. Makes me sad. I am close friends with a business owner on Florissant ave where the worst of it is. Not sure what's come of their place yet.

[Pandemonium]

That is a lot to sort. Can anyone direct me to the particular/relevant files?

Maybe, but first Pandemonium should call you a dumbass for asking a sensible question.

You know full well what I was talking about. Advocating shooting cops while obviously (willfully or not) ignorant of the facts of this matter is a new low for you.

[Hype]

That is a lot to sort. Can anyone direct me to the particular/relevant files?

Maybe, but first Pandemonium should call you a dumbass for asking a sensible question.

You know full well what I was talking about. Advocating shooting cops while obviously (willfully or not) ignorant of the facts of this matter is a new low for you.

That you think I was advocating shooting cops makes this make a lot more sense. I wasn't advocating shooting cops. I don't even think cops should have guns, let alone the stupid masses.

[Essence_Smith]

Last post for me in this thread...I came across the article that makes some interesting points regarding the fear and stereotypes I think of when I look at this case, as well as how the justice system handled it...pokes a lot of holes...

Shooter Darren Wilson Testimony: Michael Brown was a 'Giant Beast Negro' That Had to Be Killed

If you have not yet read Darren Wilson's testimony to the Ferguson grand jury which decided that he would suffer no ill consequences for his decision to kill Michael Brown, please do so.

Wilson's description of the events on the day that he decided to shoot and kill an unarmed person cannot be adequately relayed to you by a second party.

The absurd, unfathomable, and fantastical story which Wilson spun out of the whole cloth in order to justify killing an unarmed black teenager combines the deepest and ugliest white supremacist stereotypes and fantasies about black folks' humanity such as the "negro fiend", "black beast", and "giant negro", with white racist paranoiac thinking, and dialogue from blaxploitation movies.

Darren Wilson's grand jury testimony purports to be an accurate description of his encounter with Michael Brown. In reality, it is closer to an amateurish summer stock theater production of the movie Birth of the Nation as performed by the KKK and/or Neo-Nazis.

After submitting a blank police report that provided no substantive information about his decision to kill Michael Brown, Darren Wilson was trained by attorneys for the police union (a common procedure when police kill civilians), and had many weeks to prepare his grand jury testimony.

During that time, Wilson was privy to the narrative and witness testimony that he would be confronted by in court.

Wilson was also aided by a prosecutor who was not at all interested in finding sufficient probable cause to proceed with a proper trial for the latter's decision to kill Michael Brown.

Ultimately, Darren Wilson was either 1) coached to recite a profoundly racist and bizarre version of his encounter with Michael Brown; 2) is deeply mired in the White Gaze and White Racial Frame to such a degree that he actually believes the white supremacist fictions he told the grand jury; or 3) some combination of the above.

The American legal system is not separate and apart from the social norms, cultures, values, and beliefs which produced it. Rather, the legal system (as well as schools, prisons, hospitals, etc.) is a crystallization of American society and its hierarchies of power.

Social scientists and others have produced volumes of research which have repeatedly demonstrated how the American legal system reinforces, perpetuates, and reflects disparate racial outcomes and white supremacy. For example, their findings include how black Americans face racial bias and unfair treatment at every level of the criminal justice system from initial police encounters to sentencing and parole decisions. Juries are influenced by implicit racial bias. Juries are also less likely to find black witnesses "credible" or "believable". And perhaps most troubling, white jurors can be subconsciously primed by images of apes and gorillas--this deeply racist association between animals and African-Americans in turn makes white jurors more likely to give black defendants the death penalty.

The empirical evidence for white racial bias in the criminal justice system is the context which produced the Ferguson grand jury's decision in favor of Darren Wilson. White supremacy makes Wilson's testimony an "intelligible" and "legitimate" type of truth claim as understood by the jurors, and the broader white society that supports Wilson's killing of the unarmed black teenager Michael Brown.

White supremacy and white racial paranoiac thinking makes Wilson's following statements about Michael Brown believable and valid--as opposed to utterances and transparent lies that most certainly do not surpass the legal standard of "reasonable doubt".

Wilson told the grand jury the following:

1. Brown possessed super human negro strength as he effortlessly crushed the weak white man's flesh with one hand. "And when I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a five-year-old holding onto Hulk Hogan...Hulk Hogan, that’s just how big he felt and how small I felt just from grasping his arm."

2. Brown is so strong and possessed of giant negro powers that he could attack Wilson with one hand while using the other to give his compatriot Dorian Johnson the box of cigars.

3. Even though he was shot several times by Darren Wilson, Brown let out a bestial grown like a feral monster, seemingly impervious to the threat of bullets and harm, he then charged at the police officer:

"So when he stopped, I stopped. And then he starts to turn around, I tell him to get on the ground, get on the ground. He turns, and when he looked at me, he made like a grunting, like aggravated sound and he starts, he turns and he’s coming back towards me. His first step is coming towards me, he kind of does like a stutter step to start running. When he does that, his left hand goes in a fist and goes to his side, his right one goes under his shirt in his waistband and he starts running at me."

"At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it was making him mad that I’m shooting at him.

And the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn’t even there, I wasn’t even anything in his way."
4. Brown apparently speaks like a blaxploitation movie character: "He grabs my gun, says, 'You are too much of a pussy to shoot me.'"

5. Brown, like other negroes, was irrational and crazed. Wilson was in a state of terror: "The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that’s how angry he looked. He comes back towards me again with his hands up."

6. Brown also has melanin powered super speed. Because blacks are apparently natural athletes with overdeveloped leg muscles, Brown ran away from Wilson so fast that he left a trail of dust at his feet in a manner akin to that of a Looney Tunes cartoon character: "When I look up after that, I see him start to run and I see a cloud of dust behind him."

7. Because Brown is a giant negro he towered over Wilson: "He then grabs my door again and shuts my door. At that time is when I saw him coming into my vehicle. His head was higher than the top of my car. And I see him ducking and as he is ducking, his hands are up and he is coming in my vehicle."

Darren Wilson's testimony to the grand jury mates a cultural script that views black people as inherently criminal with recent empirical research that demonstrates how white folks actually do believe that black people are "super human" and a mysterious type of Other.

Wilson tale is also a reminder of how the near past of Jim and Jane Crow lives in the "post racial" present of the Age of Obama.

A black man is President of the United States of America.

But, a white cop can use language and white racial logic of 19th and early 20th century lynch law--with its fixation on "negro fiends", "imps of the inferno", and "noble" defenders of white society--to avoid going to trial for taking the life of an unarmed black teenager, while also being elevated to hero status (and financially enriched) by those sick and morally deranged white folks who want to live vicariously through the act of killing a black person.

Dred Scott is buried several miles away from where Darren Wilson killed Michael Brown. Scott, in one of the most infamous United States Supreme Court decisions, was deemed to not have any rights that a white man is bound to respect. Almost 150 years later, Darren Wilson used the same white supremacist logic, and in doing so offered a version of events that would have been a perfect fit for a 19th century newspaper article about the lynching, disembowelment, and vivisection of a black victim of spectacular white violence.

"History is a moving train". Ferguson is a reminder of how those historical continuities of white supremacy as enacted through the American legal system (and other cultural and social institutions) are still killing and murdering black and brown folks with impunity.

[SR]

As I understand, and respect your wanting to distance yourself from this thread I have to wonder if it's because of anything I said. Though I think I am rather enlightened, at least as much as a whitey can be, I still search for areas of ignorance.

Best....

[SR]

And that beast comment doesn't even go as far in humanity as Fennimore Cooper did with the "noble" savage in the 19th century.

[Hype]

http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b49 ... 73514e334b

The National Bar Association is questioning how the Grand Jury, considering the evidence before them, could reach the conclusion that Darren Wilson should not be indicted and tried for the shooting death of Michael Brown. National Bar Association President Pamela J. Meanes expresses her sincere disappointment with the outcome of the Grand Jury’s decision but has made it abundantly clear that the National Bar Association stands firm and will be calling on the U.S. Department of Justice to pursue federal charges against officer Darren Wilson. “We will not rest until Michael Brown and his family has justice” states Pamela Meanes, President of the National Bar Association.

[SR]

"What causes the eruptions, the riots, the revolts- whatever you want to call them- is the despair of being in a static position, absolutely static, of watching your father, your brother, your uncle, or your cousin- no matter how old the black cat is or how young- who has no future. And when the summer comes, both fathers and sons are in the streets- they can't stay in the houses. I was born in those houses and I know. And it's not their fault".

James Baldwin

http://www.esquire.com/features/james-baldwin-cool-it

[Pandemonium]

http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b49 ... 73514e334b

The National Bar Association is questioning how the Grand Jury, considering the evidence before them, could reach the conclusion that Darren Wilson should not be indicted and tried for the shooting death of Michael Brown. National Bar Association President Pamela J. Meanes expresses her sincere disappointment with the outcome of the Grand Jury’s decision but has made it abundantly clear that the National Bar Association stands firm and will be calling on the U.S. Department of Justice to pursue federal charges against officer Darren Wilson. “We will not rest until Michael Brown and his family has justice” states Pamela Meanes, President of the National Bar Association.

Of course. The Feds led by Atty General Holder want to make a big deal about going after Wilson but it's not going to go anywhere. It's a bald faced ploy to pander to and appease voters that will fizzle out once the current outcry dies off. The most likely outcome is the family of Brown will succeed in a civil case against the city/state and get a big payout. "Justice" is appeasement in this case.

[Hype]

Bill Moyers is right.

[SR]

http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b49 ... 73514e334b

The National Bar Association is questioning how the Grand Jury, considering the evidence before them, could reach the conclusion that Darren Wilson should not be indicted and tried for the shooting death of Michael Brown. National Bar Association President Pamela J. Meanes expresses her sincere disappointment with the outcome of the Grand Jury’s decision but has made it abundantly clear that the National Bar Association stands firm and will be calling on the U.S. Department of Justice to pursue federal charges against officer Darren Wilson. “We will not rest until Michael Brown and his family has justice” states Pamela Meanes, President of the National Bar Association.

Of course. The Feds led by Atty General Holder want to make a big deal about going after Wilson but it's not going to go anywhere. It's a bald faced ploy to pander to and appease voters that will fizzle out once the current outcry dies off. The most likely outcome is the family of Brown will succeed in a civil case against the city/state and get a big payout. "Justice" is appeasement in this case.

Besides the highly debatable specifics...this comes off rather strident, presumptuous, and cavalier.

[Pandemonium]

Of course. The Feds led by Atty General Holder want to make a big deal about going after Wilson but it's not going to go anywhere. It's a bald faced ploy to pander to and appease voters that will fizzle out once the current outcry dies off. The most likely outcome is the family of Brown will succeed in a civil case against the city/state and get a big payout. "Justice" is appeasement in this case.

Besides the highly debatable specifics...this comes off rather strident, presumptuous, and cavalier.

Think of my opinion more as cynical based on historical fact.

[SR]

Of course. The Feds led by Atty General Holder want to make a big deal about going after Wilson but it's not going to go anywhere. It's a bald faced ploy to pander to and appease voters that will fizzle out once the current outcry dies off. The most likely outcome is the family of Brown will succeed in a civil case against the city/state and get a big payout. "Justice" is appeasement in this case.

Besides the highly debatable specifics...this comes off rather strident, presumptuous, and cavalier.

Think of my opinion more as cynical based on historical fact.

I am glad you replied; my interpretation was but one of many possible. And funny you mention history....as a result of this, I downloaded a bio on Thurgood Marshall today that is outlining it from Dred Scott to Plessey and everything else, including of course, Marshall's Brown case and so much more. Horrifying no matter how many times I re-visit this part of our culture/society.

[Hype]

https://www.academia.edu/9482167/How_ma ... e_Tolerate

[creep]

three pages here today....just can't do it.

[Hokahey]

I continue to applaud the peaceful protestors, but find the violent ones reprehensible. They're detsroying their town, which will eventually come to resemble East St. Louis if they're not careful. I've driven through the depths of ESTL many times, usually headed to some shady club or strip joint with a large group. It's all boarded up up houses, burnt buildings, and extreme poverty. Business owners are already swearing off rebuilding in Fergsuon, and people will undoubtedly hesitate to locate themselves or their businesses there in the future.

And regarding the peaceful protestors, there needs to be an end game in mind. Otherwise you become Occupy Wall Street - a bunch of well intentioned people with very loose demands and expectations that are either pipe dreams or too random for real consideration. Eventually, they're just people standing around being angry. Their numbers will dwindle, and people will stop paying attention.

Wilson wasn't indicted. That part of the game is now over. Are they demanding a federal indictment? If so, take your potests to the feds and be clear on that.

In the end, there will be positive change from all of this. I'd be shocked if all cops in the area don'r wind up with lapel cameras. But that's more of an appeasement measure. A stab at a solution to quiet people down. Get a list of demands, that can be met within at least some reason, and present them. Otherwise, the overall protests will be a footnote and generally forgotten in due time. Except by the people left to live within the aftermath of a destroyed small town in the suburbs of St. Louis.