Emma Watson and equality

[Larry B.]

This explains things in a better way then I can so I'm going to be lazy. I encourage people who still think "compliments" aren't street harassment to read this please.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/46527-6- ... we-need-to

And if you're going to argue that saying "how are you" to a random woman is fine then I hope you say "how are you" to every single person on the street. It's one thing to say Hi to people you know, people in your neighborhood you see often, etc. This is not a small town/community dynamic I am talking about. This is someone you do not know, will not know, who is trying to walk down a street and simply exist.

Okay I'm done with this topic on here. Please read the article, it's written simply and it's quick.

I found most of that article to be nonsensical. It's basically saying "you don't have the right to talk to strangers", which is nothing short of stupid. It's a very lazy way to deal with what's wrong with a sexist society, by stripping it from some of its core principles.

Person A saying to Person B "I'd fuck you 'til your dead grandma ask us to stop" = harassment.

Person A saying to Person B "Can I get your phone number" = too forward. Might be a bit aggressive, but it's not harassment if Person A lets go after being told "no" one time.

Person A saying to Person B "bless you" or whatever they say in their country when some else sneezes = definitely not harassment! Person A is just trying to be polite. It might be unnecessary and awkward.

Person A saying trying to strike a normal conversation with Person B when they're waiting for the train/the doctor/whatever = not harassment. Awkward, maybe. If Person A can't take a hint and can't take a direct comment such as "you're making me uncomfortable", then it could be harassment if they don't leave you alone.

Other people doing stuff you don't like it's not harassment by default. If people look a bit lost in the subway, I approach them and offer my help, regardless of their gender or nationality or how poor/rich they look. It'd be absolutely stupid if they thought I was harassing them by saying "can I help?" If I approached them grabbing my crotch, that's a whole different matter. But otherwise, it's just people either trying to be helpful or polite or people trying to get into a conversation with someone they find interesting or attractive at first sight. You can ignore them or reject them, of course. You can pretend to be talking on the phone or whatever. But again, not everyone who approaches you is a threat. Obtaining the skills to identify who is a threat and who isn't might take time and be difficult, but that's just the way life is. Proclaiming that everything is harassment is lazy, simplistic and not even worthy of debate.

[Hype]

"you don't have the right to talk to strangers", which is nothing short of stupid.

No it isn't. The article's actually pretty clear about that -- a nod hello to a girl in your neighbourhood while out walking the dog isn't the phenomenon in question. And anyway, no one said there wasn't a right to do it. Of course there is, because talking to someone in public isn't illegal. But it *can* be creepy, or annoying, or bordering on harassment (which may or may not put it into questionable legality). It's hardly stupid to speak loudly about the fact that some men seem to think they can speak to women they don't know on the street in a way that is "overly familiar" to the point of causing fear and worry about potential danger (which does exist).

This is one of these things where people might actually think it's perfectly socially acceptable JUST BECAUSE women haven't been heard objecting to it (or haven't ever said it out loud repeatedly enough for people to care).

Plus, Larry, it's also the case that Latin America, like Southern Europe and some Arab countries (Egypt, in particular), has a very macho, very sexist dominant culture and a serious problem with women being objectified, touched, groped, etc., in public. You might think speaking to people you don't know is normal, but that's not the point. The point is that you don't get to dictate what people do and don't like. And if a significant portion of half of the population says they don't like something, it's reasonable to believe that it's probably at least rude, if nothing else, to keep doing it.

[Larry B.]

"you don't have the right to talk to strangers", which is nothing short of stupid.

No it isn't. The article's actually pretty clear about that -- a nod hello to a girl in your neighbourhood while out walking the dog isn't the phenomenon in question. And anyway, no one said there wasn't a right to do it. Of course there is, because talking to someone in public isn't illegal. But it *can* be creepy, or annoying, or bordering on harassment (which may or may not put it into questionable legality). It's hardly stupid to speak loudly about the fact that some men seem to think they can speak to women they don't know on the street in a way that is "overly familiar" to the point of causing fear and worry about potential danger (which does exist).

This is one of these things where people might actually think it's perfectly socially acceptable JUST BECAUSE women haven't been heard objecting to it (or haven't ever said it out loud repeatedly enough for people to care).

Plus, Larry, it's also the case that Latin America, like Southern Europe and some Arab countries (Egypt, in particular), has a very macho, very sexist dominant culture and a serious problem with women being objectified, touched, groped, etc., in public. You might think speaking to people you don't know is normal, but that's not the point. The point is that you don't get to dictate what people do and don't like. And if a significant portion of half of the population says they don't like something, it's reasonable to believe that it's probably at least rude, if nothing else, to keep doing it.

I think I agree with everything or most of what you said there.

I wanted to point out that there is a range of possibilities when someone you don't know talks to you. Not everything is harassment and not everything you don't like is harassment. If someone says "wow" at a woman and you call it harassment, you're taking away something from the meaning of that word, because you put it under the same umbrella of a guy pinching a girl's butt. It's not the same, it's not equally invasive, it's not as violent, etc. It doesn't matter if a particular person thinks "wow" is the worse thing you can say, it's not harassment.

Rape, generally speaking, is forceful, uninvited and non-consensual penetration.

Sexual abuse, generally speaking, can go from touching someone's crotch without consent to showing someone your penis and demanding them to suck it.

Sexual harassment, generally speaking, can go from telling someone what you'd do sexually to them (without them showing consent) to repeatedly 'joking' about what a good time you two would have in bed.

Harassment, generally speaking, can go from following some woman for 5 minutes asking for a date even though she doesn't show the slightest interest, to saying stuff like "great fucking rack, mamma".

A lot of stuff that happens in the streets, we don't like. It doesn't even have to be something sex-related: some fucking moron can start talking to me about Jesus or I can offer my help to someone who doesn't need it. That doesn't make it harassment, and surely someone who says "wow" to you, without any sign of aggressiveness, should be cataloged in the folder of "uncomfortable", not harassment. Someone saying "wow" is in no way equal to someone saying "wow, great rack, mamma, I wanna suck'em titties."

[Hype]

In Costa Rica, there was a covered alleyway from the hotel to the beach that locals were using to sell shitty souveniers... as far as I know, none of those locals actually raped or sexually harassed anyone, but they were extremely invasive and forceful both in presence and verbally, and they were ALWAYS there. If the way I felt (not to mention any women) there, standing a good head taller than most of them (Costa Ricans are poor, small people, as I imagine is similar in much of Chile), was anything like the way many women feel walking down the street in a big city, then I think it's absolutely reasonable to call it out and question why we don't consider it socially inappropriate, rude, etc. (Again, not a legal or even necessarily moral argument, though it is potentially moral, since we ought to care about how social structures affect the ability of everyone to operate in their daily lives without fear or invasion of privacy).

I think it was probably perfectly legal for those guys to line that alleyway and sell that shit. In fact, I think for a lot of them the alley was right along their backyard. But it was so beyond tolerable that I started walking the long way around down the main road to not have to deal with them (watch my wallet, ignore them and hope they don't threaten me for not responding to their questions, etc.) Trying to imagine every time I go outside like that makes me want to vomit.

[Larry B.]

extremely invasive and forceful both in presence and verbally

That's my distinction right there. I also hate those stupid jackoffs at markets who follow you so that you have lunch in their restaurant. People should be entitled to punch them in the face.

[Hype]

Right, so my point was that it was analogous to what many women experience not just in isolated areas or on vacation in shitty countries, but near-constantly. Hyper-vigilance isn't a healthy mental state.

And when I said "extremely invasive and forceful" I didn't necessarily mean physically. It's as simple as putting you on extreme edge by sitting a certain way in a chair or giving you a certain look, or speaking a certain way. And in my case it wasn't sexual, it was just generalized tension (possibility of being mugged/robbed, or just harassed, or whatever...).

[SR]

I agree with everything in the article, except I think she overestimates women's ability to decipher the vibe of men. We're worse than she thinks.

[Essence_Smith]

We're worse than she thinks.

I would tend to agree with you, but is it good to prejudge anyone based on the worst examples of their kind you've come across?

[Everybody's Friend]

We're worse than she thinks.

I would tend to agree with you, but is it good to prejudge anyone based on the worst examples of their kind you've come across?

It may not be "good" but it may be natural to be made to be more cautious...

[Essence_Smith]

I don't know how to feel about this one really, but if you were the guy in the 8 Ball jacket what would you have done? At first I saw it was like damn, but I dunno...the girl is being charged with felony assault...

[perkana]

Person A saying to Person B "bless you" or whatever they say in their country when some else sneezes = definitely not harassment! Person A is just trying to be polite. It might be unnecessary and awkward.

You didn't understand that bit, they meant it as in "Bless you woman for your incredible booty". And that is harrassment, like it says, by using the G word doesn't make you less of a creep. And they didn't mean innocent conversations, more like flirting conversations. On the subway or anywhere, it is harrassment if it's uninvited.

[Hype]

I don't know how to feel about this one really, but if you were the guy in the 8 Ball jacket what would you have done? At first I saw it was like damn, but I dunno...the girl is being charged with felony assault...

I think that's why they invented tranquilizers.

[Essence_Smith]

Person A saying to Person B "bless you" or whatever they say in their country when some else sneezes = definitely not harassment! Person A is just trying to be polite. It might be unnecessary and awkward.

You didn't understand that bit, they meant it as in "Bless you woman for your incredible booty". And that is harrassment, like it says, by using the G word doesn't make you less of a creep. And they didn't mean innocent conversations, more like flirting conversations. On the subway or anywhere, it is harrassment if it's uninvited.

I think the word harassment is thrown around a little too lightly...I don't see how "hey beautiful" a bad thing. And how does one "invite" a compliment? I think there is a fine line and I get it and some guys don't, but when people (on either side) can't tell the difference between a flirtatious compliment like "hey beautiful" and something completely inappropriate and or disrespectful there's a problem. Some men need to stop being assholes and some women need to be able to grow a thicker skin...for the record the woman who did that video stated that she did NOT mind the "beautifuls" and that the more aggressive things like the guy following her were what made her feel badly...huge difference...

[perkana]

It's easy, if someone doesn't give you a smile or looks at you in an inviting, friendly way and they're just walking, minding their own business. It's as easy as that
And I agree with everything you've said ES. It's just damn uncomfortable, it's been ages since I've been in that situation. But it's still awful when people who don't know you tell you how to behave.

[Essence_Smith]

It's easy, if someone doesn't give you a smile or looks at you in an inviting, friendly way and they're just walking, minding their own business. It's as easy as that
And I agree with everything you've said ES. It's just damn uncomfortable, it's been ages since I've been in that situation. But it's still awful when people who don't know you tell you how to behave.

I definitely understand what most women are saying here. I think I have a problem with it kind of being filed under harassment. I talk to strangers on the street CONSTANTLY...and I grew up with some pretty smooth dudes who instead of actually telling a girl they should smile would say something like "excuse me, I don't mean to sound funny but it would make my day if you could just smile"...if the girl smiled they would thank them, wish them a good day and everyone went on about their business...chances are they'd see the girl again in the neighborhood and THEN they'd try and get their phone number or something. These were respectful dudes who knew exactly how to approach someone and they weren't demanding anything, they were always polite as hell and I learned a lot from them...no offense to her, but farrellgirl and some others here give off this vibe that there's no room for a guy to approach a woman they don't know on the street at all. I know no one's said as much but it seems that any approach is a bad thing to hear them tell it...

[Hype]

why would it be a woman's job to make some random dude's day by smiling? That shit doesn't even make any sense.

[Essence_Smith]

why would it be a woman's job to make some random dude's day by smiling? That shit doesn't even make any sense.

It's just a line dude...they were trying to see if they could get a girl they didn't know who they found attractive to smile, period. Nothing more...and if the girl didn't smile it would be "have a nice day" and that was it. Who in the hell said it was a woman's job???? This is what I'm talking about...of course there are some men who feel they're entitled to a response and are complete assholes, but then you have others who are simply trying to make conversation or get a reaction and if it leads to a friendship then cool...this attitude that somehow the very act of trying to get their attention in the first place is disappointing. I know intentions don't mean a thing if a woman walks away feeling negative, etc but christ how do you meet people at that point? Is there a time that's appropriate? Do you need a proper introduction all the time?

[Hype]

but christ how do you meet people at that point?

As a character on The Simpsons once said, paraphrased: "through a mutual friend like a normal person."

The whole concept of hitting on women randomly on the street without any other context doesn't make sense to me unless you see women as receptive vessels waiting to be "picked up" (hence: pickup lines?) rather than people who have lives they're trying to live independently. The line you mention above really just seems like it assumes that making that dude happy is what a woman, any woman, should want to do... which is odd unless you don't think women are entitled to not have to deal with the expectations of random men on the street.

There are so many contexts in which trying to "meet people" is possible, and maybe even desirable... through friends, bars, through hobbies...

Failblog is usually pretty stupid, but this is a good one:

[Essence_Smith]

but christ how do you meet people at that point?

As a character on The Simpsons once said, paraphrased: "through a mutual friend like a normal person."

The whole concept of hitting on women randomly on the street without any other context doesn't make sense to me unless you see women as receptive vessels waiting to be "picked up" (hence: pickup lines?) rather than people who have lives they're trying to live independently. The line you mention above really just seems like it assumes that making that dude happy is what a woman, any woman, should want to do... which is odd unless you don't think women are entitled to not have to deal with the expectations of random men on the street.

There are so many contexts in which trying to "meet people" is possible, and maybe even desirable... through friends, bars, through hobbies...

Failblog is usually pretty stupid, but this is a good one:

You're making the assumption that a reaction from a woman is the expectation in that situation. I really think there are cases where people are hoping they get someone's attention, not expecting or feeling they're entitled to it and this is one example. And what is the difference in a bar really? It's still a stranger...trust that I get where you're going with the thought process, I just think there are exceptions and situations where people are just attempting to be friendly and have no threatening agenda other than the possibility than getting a cute girl's attention that might lead to a conversation at some point. I personally think meeting women in bars actually sucks because no one is really themselves when drugs are involved. Aside from that I'll just agree to disagree with you I guess...no one's saying women are vessels to be picked up but I think there are some situations where there's nothing wrong with politely trying to start a conversation with someone. I've done it a million times and unless you immediately bring attention to your feelings about someone's appearance I don't think it qualifies as hitting on someone...I'm not talking about construction workers shouting to a woman about how she looks necessarily, I'm referring to a guy politely complimenting someone, getting a smile or favorable response and then starting a conversation. I met my wife walking down the street one day...I smiled, she said hello and I introduced myself...we had no mutual friends to speak of (as far as I knew, turns out I'd known her brother casually for years) and wouldn't have met had I waited for a particular situation. This stuff is being blown out of proportion...

[Hype]

There are always going to be exceptions... I think I mentioned a while back that the same is true with grad students dating undergrads or professors dating grad students... it's a really bad idea that sometimes works out positively. But that doesn't stop it from being a bad idea in general. Obviously your case worked out. But that doesn't mean it should be normal or acceptable. Lots of arranged marriages work out, but those probably shouldn't be acceptable, in general, either.

[Essence_Smith]

There are always going to be exceptions... I think I mentioned a while back that the same is true with grad students dating undergrads or professors dating grad students... it's a really bad idea that sometimes works out positively. But that doesn't stop it from being a bad idea in general. Obviously your case worked out. But that doesn't mean it should be normal or acceptable. Lots of arranged marriages work out, but those probably shouldn't be acceptable, in general, either.

I dunno what to say at this point...I definitely understand how it is for women out there...I have four sisters and two daughters...I've seen the full spectrum of how it can go when guys approach women randomly on the street...everything from guys exchanging numbers with women and it leading to relationships to dudes cursing at and even throwing objects at women for not responding...that stuff is disgusting but I don't think it counts for what's going on in a guy's head every time it happens. I get what you're saying about the proper setting and context, I just think one scenario is as good as any other provided the person initiating has some respect for both themselves and the person they're attempting to approach.

[perkana]

It's easy, if someone doesn't give you a smile or looks at you in an inviting, friendly way and they're just walking, minding their own business. It's as easy as that
And I agree with everything you've said ES. It's just damn uncomfortable, it's been ages since I've been in that situation. But it's still awful when people who don't know you tell you how to behave.

I definitely understand what most women are saying here. I think I have a problem with it kind of being filed under harassment. I talk to strangers on the street CONSTANTLY...and I grew up with some pretty smooth dudes who instead of actually telling a girl they should smile would say something like "excuse me, I don't mean to sound funny but it would make my day if you could just smile"...if the girl smiled they would thank them, wish them a good day and everyone went on about their business...chances are they'd see the girl again in the neighborhood and THEN they'd try and get their phone number or something. These were respectful dudes who knew exactly how to approach someone and they weren't demanding anything, they were always polite as hell and I learned a lot from them...no offense to her, but farrellgirl and some others here give off this vibe that there's no room for a guy to approach a woman they don't know on the street at all. I know no one's said as much but it seems that any approach is a bad thing to hear them tell it...

That's the thing, you have to know when it's right. If the woman is approachable and friendly, go ahead. Last time a guy told me why I should date him. A total strange jackass. His argument was that I was too hard on myself and that I should give us a chance. Like wtf?. I was a bit tipsy and he made me angrier the moment he said more shit like that. He asked my number and guess what? I had to give him a fake one because he couldn't believe that I didn't have my cell phone with me. I just had to give him anything for him to leave me the fuck alone.
I myself talk to strangers a lot. People seem to like to tell me the story of their lives. It's not like I'm against talking to strangers, just the cat calling and what happened to me.

[LJF]

but christ how do you meet people at that point?

As a character on The Simpsons once said, paraphrased: "through a mutual friend like a normal person."

The whole concept of hitting on women randomly on the street without any other context doesn't make sense to me unless you see women as receptive vessels waiting to be "picked up" (hence: pickup lines?) rather than people who have lives they're trying to live independently. The line you mention above really just seems like it assumes that making that dude happy is what a woman, any woman, should want to do... which is odd unless you don't think women are entitled to not have to deal with the expectations of random men on the street.

There are so many contexts in which trying to "meet people" is possible, and maybe even desirable... through friends, bars, through hobbies...



So how does someone meet someone that they find attractive and would like to get to know if they don't have a mutual friend? This is a serious question, have you ever seen someone that you wanted to get to know and just walked up and tried to start a conversation with them? I get where you are coming from with some of the things you've said, but I'm just wondering where we would all be if we just waiting for in intro vs sometimes just walking up and starting a conversation.

[perkana]

My problem is not actually meeting people, my problem is becoming friends or hanging out with them. I know it's an excuse, but I live in a very big city. So it's easier if you meet someone who lives near you or who goes to work around the same area.
I've had very positive experiences meeting guys at bars, but that one time. However, I've just noticed that it isn't as easy as it was in my 20's.

[Hype]

I didn't mean to rule out starting conversations with people you don't know. Of course there are lots of cases where this will just happen naturally, or where you just go for it. It's easy to imagine standing at a bus stop waiting for a bus and being blown away by some good looking human, and therefore deciding to strike up a conversation with the hope that maybe somehow it will turn into something else (especially if they get on the same bus and sit with you). I think ES and I aren't that far off... there's a line, and it's not clear exactly where it is, but it's somewhere between not talking to anyone you don't already know and sticking your hand up the dress of every woman you see... More seriously, I don't think any common sense view about treating other human beings with respect (which does not mean doing what you want in a "respectful" way, but treating them, as Kant would say, as "ends in themselves", i.e., as autonomous agents whose lives are independent of yours) would ever result in people being unable to find other people to mate with...

So yeah, there are lots of cases where you'll get lucky and meet someone randomly. But I think it's clear that it's both unwanted and unacceptable to think that it's just fine to think trying to pick up random women on the street, without any other kind of context that might make it an exception (like small-talk waiting for a bus...)

If you're not careful, I guess this could happen: