Paris Attack

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perkana
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Re: Paris Attack

#41 Post by perkana » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:54 am

I thought this was an interesting read...
http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201511063740106115
The reality is that for as long as there have been liberal ideals staking their claim to the various freedoms western societies have come to sacralise, there have also been societies suffering from exploitation and subjugation at the hands of those professing these lofty principles.

Even as they were establishing the very foundations of modern liberal societies, from the tenets of freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion to the basis for democratic forms of governance, Enlightenment thinkers were nearly universal in their expression of support for a world built on racial hierarchies and the expansion of new European empires that depended largely on the use of violence to control colonial subjects. That these philosophers developed their racist outlooks towards Jews, Muslims, and blacks on the basis of "reason" and "rationality" makes such views more abhorrent than those derived from pre-modern modes of thought.

Whether it is the racist expressions of Enlightenment philosophers or the cartoons of Charlie Hebdo, these provocative views cannot be separated from the broader political projects at work. At the same time that western liberalism gave rise to modern states committed to freedom, democracy, and the rule of law, it also saw to the continuation of slavery, the colonisation and subjugation of large segments of Asia, Africa, Australia, and the Americas, and global economic exploitation and environmental degradation.
"They are, all of them, born with raging fanaticism in their hearts, just as the Bretons and the Germans are born with blond hair. I would not be in the least bit surprised if these people would not some day become deadly to the human race."

Writing on European Jews, this quote comes not from a propagandist in Nazi Germany, but rather from Voltaire, the 18th century French philosopher whose name has been invoked frequently in recent days as a historic champion of the freedom of expression.

Voltaire's views on Islam were no more tempered, as he authored an entire play dedicated to mocking its Prophet Muhammad as "the founder of a false and barbarous sect" and "a sublime and hearty charlatan".

While one can defend the right of satirists, government officials, and philosophers to espouse such beliefs - the hashtag #JeSuisCharlie became a popular means of expressing solidarity with the magazine in the hours after the attack - in the face of this history, it should become clear that in the case of cultural production, context always matters. Destructive policies cannot be pursued successfully without the vocabulary and imagery of racism and hatred of the other.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... mad-images

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perkana
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Re: Paris Attack

#42 Post by perkana » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:02 am


blackcoffee
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Re: Paris Attack

#43 Post by blackcoffee » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:48 pm

SR wrote:[]The notion that white men can't comment on folly wherever it might be, crudely or elegantly, elevates political correctness to a level that defies reason. If I understand correctly, older white men can't comment on anything, right or wrong, as a penance for the sins of their white ancestors (with the assumption these artists are not xenophobic or racist, as I do when considering their body of work as a whole).

As for the nature of their medium, they are but snippets...not essays, dissertations, or books that require a more diligent level of research and thought.

In any event your post got me thinking more about this as I respect your thinking. I too am trying to wrap my head around this. :tiphat:
I don't mean to come across as suggesting a PC stance at all, or that white men should be held to a different standard than other groups. I think that when the dominant culture uses its position of power i.e a group of establishment cartoonists writing in a national press to lampoon (and that's putting it mildly) a marginalized group I find it questionable, and even reprehensible.

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Re: Paris Attack

#44 Post by SR » Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:29 pm

blackcoffee wrote:
SR wrote:[]The notion that white men can't comment on folly wherever it might be, crudely or elegantly, elevates political correctness to a level that defies reason. If I understand correctly, older white men can't comment on anything, right or wrong, as a penance for the sins of their white ancestors (with the assumption these artists are not xenophobic or racist, as I do when considering their body of work as a whole).

As for the nature of their medium, they are but snippets...not essays, dissertations, or books that require a more diligent level of research and thought.

In any event your post got me thinking more about this as I respect your thinking. I too am trying to wrap my head around this. :tiphat:
I don't mean to come across as suggesting a PC stance at all, or that white men should be held to a different standard than other groups. I think that when the dominant culture uses its position of power i.e a group of establishment cartoonists writing in a national press to lampoon (and that's putting it mildly) a marginalized group I find it questionable, and even reprehensible.
So to be clear, in this case the dominant culture are white men...correct? Too, I don't see them being held to a different standard as any group, set in particular ideologies, may lampoon anyone else under the auspices of free speech. I don't see how majority or minority status makes any difference, nor do I see how being reasonable or unreasonable, logical or illogical, moral or immoral has any bearing on free speech either.

I don't agree with the kkk or the wbc, but I firmly believe they have every right to speak peaceably and I believe that satirists may say anything they wish in most crude or elegant terms to comment on them. They are clearly larger minorities than extremist Muslims.

It just so happens that as with those examples, I tend to agree with the Charlie satirists where extreme Muslims are concerned. As I stated earlier I think it's time that the vast majority of peaceful practitioners of Islam create a solid nexus with other peaceful people to assist in creating a universal taboo against these savages.

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Bandit72
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Re: Paris Attack

#45 Post by Bandit72 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:03 am

Some are reporting that 'Le Front National' was asked NOT to show up in Paris. Double standards much?

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Re: Paris Attack

#46 Post by Bandit72 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:48 am

This is pretty sad....
Charlie Hebdo: French police commissioner 'kills himself after meeting with victim's family'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 72912.html

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Re: Paris Attack

#47 Post by Hype » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:12 pm

Bandit72 wrote:This is pretty sad....
Charlie Hebdo: French police commissioner 'kills himself after meeting with victim's family'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 72912.html
Goddamn...

Well, I don't know what to think about this in particular terms. The general is easy and obvious: just as a woman should be able to walk down the street naked without being harassed or raped, a satirist or an idiot should be able to say or write whatever without fear of death (from the state or its citizens).

What's truly terrifying about this kind of terrorism is that it exposes the inability of a sovereign state to protect its citizens, even after a decade of hacking away at civil liberties in the name of increasing that very kind of safety. And once that happens, even an old, affluent, state can easily disappear into chaos and anarchy.

There was a good article that hints at this here: http://m.theatlantic.com/international/ ... re/384410/
The massacre at a kosher supermarket in Paris on Friday reinforced a fear, expressed openly and with distressing frequency by many in France’s half-million-strong Jewish community, that Islamist violence is compelling large numbers of Jews to flee. Already, several thousand have left over the past few years. But it is not merely the physical safety of France’s Jews that is imperiled by anti-Semitic violence, the country’s prime minister, Manuel Valls, argues, but the very idea of the French Republic itself. In an interview conducted before the Charlie Hebdo and kosher supermarket massacres, Valls told me that if French Jews were to flee in large numbers, the soul of the French Republic would be at risk.

“The choice was made by the French Revolution in 1789 to recognize Jews as full citizens,” Valls told me. “To understand what the idea of the republic is about, you have to understand the central role played by the emancipation of the Jews. It is a founding principle.”

Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.”

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Artemis
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Re: Paris Attack

#48 Post by Artemis » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:31 pm

I am curious to know why young muslim men, and some women, are susceptible to Islamic radicalization. With the Paris case, the shooters were French citizens who were born in Paris! Are they depressed? Mentally ill? Lack of education, ambition, drive? Do they feel inferior or inadequate as men? Is it loneliness? Do they have the need for community and acceptance? Purpose? :noclue:

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Hype
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Re: Paris Attack

#49 Post by Hype » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:40 pm

Artemis wrote:I am curious to know why young muslim men, and some women, are susceptible to Islamic radicalization. With the Paris case, the shooters were French citizens who were born in Paris! Are they depressed? Mentally ill? Lack of education, ambition, drive? Do they feel inferior or inadequate as men? Is it loneliness? Do they have the need for community and acceptance? Purpose? :noclue:
There's a lot of money and effort behind the spread of Wahhabism, and a lot of first-generation immigrant children may be looking for an identity. Plus, hell, a lot of people are just really dumb... It's frightening the sheer number of Christian converts I know who believe dumb, potentially dangerous, things and who would probably murder if the case were made just right (cf. abortion-clinic bombings/protests, anti-atheist sentiment, anti-semitism more generally). It's not just, or really, young Muslims, it's just people. But political Islam happens to have a violent, well-funded propaganda campaign.

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Re: Paris Attack

#50 Post by Bandit72 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:06 am

This is what scares me about the media, in particularly Fox News. And I feel sorry for the people who watch (and believe) idiots like this who generally don't have much of an idea of anything outside of the US. There was a huge backlash on Twitter, and rightly so, which eventually ended up becoming a mockery of Fox News. The Terrorism 'expert' has since apologised, and taken a page out in the press to do so and even donated to our amazing children's hospital. How itgot to that stage in the first place is beyond me.



Some of the Twitter responses are hi-lighted in this newspaper article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... facts.html

The population of Muslims in the UK is 5% of the total population. In Birmingham, where I live, the 2011 population breakdown was

White Total : 621,636 57.93%
Asian or Asian British: Total : 285,640 26.62%
Black or Black British: Total : 96,360 8.98%
Mixed: Total : 47,605 4.44%
Other: Total :21,804 2.03%

I would say of all the large UK cities, Birmingham probably has the greatest integration with everyone.

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Re: Paris Attack

#51 Post by creep » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:31 am

i'm surprised you have such a high asian population. :noclue:

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Bandit72
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Re: Paris Attack

#52 Post by Bandit72 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:17 am

I think it started after the war and more so in the 70's after the civil war in Pakistan. It was, and still is, the case of 'seeking better opportunities'. Calais have a huge problem now with migrants trying to stowaway on huge lorries to come to the UK, mainly due to the benefits system. Free money has never been easier to come by...plus a free health service. This system is now currently in a state of change. It's not just Asians. Africans too. There are also a lot of eastern Europeans, who tend to work for less money, so more employable in some cases. They then send the cash back home.

London is pretty much similar, but obviously a bigger number.

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Re: Paris Attack

#53 Post by Hype » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:53 am

So what you're saying is: Birmingham probably has some of the best food in the UK. :nod:

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Re: Paris Attack

#54 Post by Bandit72 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:48 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:So what you're saying is: Birmingham probably has some of the best food in the UK. :nod:
Damn right! It definitely has the best curry/balti houses in the UK. There is a Balti Triangle in Birmingham as well as Indian restaurants on pretty much every main street in every suburb. In fact, eating Indian food is how I found my love for chilli. I have an unnatural obsession to have chilli/a random selection of chilli sauces with everything if I can. I love heat, and disagree that it kills the flavour before anyone pipes up. :hehe:

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Re: Paris Attack

#55 Post by SR » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:10 pm

Beautiful first issue cartoon response from c hebdo today.

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Re: Paris Attack

#56 Post by Hype » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:14 pm

Bandit72 wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:So what you're saying is: Birmingham probably has some of the best food in the UK. :nod:
Damn right! It definitely has the best curry/balti houses in the UK. There is a Balti Triangle in Birmingham as well as Indian restaurants on pretty much every main street in every suburb. In fact, eating Indian food is how I found my love for chilli. I have an unnatural obsession to have chilli/a random selection of chilli sauces with everything if I can. I love heat, and disagree that it kills the flavour before anyone pipes up. :hehe:
I am hungry just imagining this... hell, I think I'll eat Indian tonight. And I'm glad my intuition is correct: diverse demographics = excellence and choice in food.

When I was a little kid we had a roti shop and a falafel place around the corner. Then I moved out to the suburbs and was stuck with shitty Italian restaurants and chains until recently because there has been a huge South and East Asian population explosion in town (we went from 30,000 people to 110,000 in less than 15 years, and most of that growth is ethnic minorities). It pisses off the old meat and potatoes people, but they're basically just afraid to try raw fish or spice.

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Re: Paris Attack

#57 Post by nausearockpig » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:36 pm

creep wrote:i'm surprised you have such a high asian population. :noclue:
Don't the English call those of Indian descent "Asian"? Not sure if this is represented in the figures or not..

EDIT: God dammit, just saw Hype's post.. .lol

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Re: Paris Attack

#58 Post by creep » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:48 pm

before i moved back to the sacramento area i lived in a city that was one of the most ethnically diverse in the united states. i was a minority.

24.5 percent Asian / Pacific Islander
24.1 percent white
23.7 percent Latino
21 percent black


little different where i live now

74.16% white
11.18% asian
10.63 hispanic
4.75% black

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Re: Paris Attack

#59 Post by MYXYLPLYX » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:20 pm

White 25.9%
Black or African American 4.56%
American Indian and Alaska Native 0.44%
Hispanic or Latino(of any race) 22.27%
Asian 50.69%


Minority "round eye" here... :wave:

:lol:

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Re: Paris Attack

#60 Post by Artemis » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:51 pm

The demographics for my area isn't broken down by black or white, but based on these figures, I would say it is correct to assume that it's mostly white.

I'm kind of in the middle of north and south. I would say I'm probably on the south side.
Demographics
Forest Hill North top ethnic and cultural groups (by ancestry) in 2006:[15]

32% - Jewish
14% - Russian
14% - Polish
11% - Canadian
8% - English
7% - Irish
6% - Scottish
6% - Romanian
5% - Italian
4% - Filipino
.83% - Croatian
Forest Hill South top ethnic and cultural groups (by ancestry) in 2006:[16]

29% - Jewish
20% - English
18% - Polish
16% - Canadian
14% - Scottish
14% - Russian
12% - Irish
6% - French
5% - German
4% - Italian
The numbers add up to more than 100% due to people of mixed ancestry.

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Re: Paris Attack

#61 Post by nausearockpig » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:57 pm

I'm in hospital at the moment and I heard a guy in the room next to us say "...well they make fun of the prophet, what else did they expect was going to happen? Fucken idiots."

Top bloke no doubt.

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Re: Paris Attack

#62 Post by creep » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:03 pm

nausearockpig wrote:I'm in hospital at the moment
i listen to a guy from australia who has a radio show and i notice that australians say "i'm in hospital" where we say "i'm in the hospital". australians also say "drink drive" and we say "drunk driving". i like that australian way better.

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Re: Paris Attack

#63 Post by nausearockpig » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:15 pm

creep wrote:
nausearockpig wrote:I'm in hospital at the moment
i listen to a guy from australia who has a radio show and i notice that australians say "i'm in hospital" where we say "i'm in the hospital". australians also say "drink drive" and we say "drunk driving". i like that australian way better.
I agree creep, generally, Australians are better than USAians ;)

Come over creep!

Our DUI saying comes from the phrase "drinking and driving" rather than being drunk and driving.. You can be done for drink driving and not be, or feel "drunk". Also we don't use the term DUI much at all.

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Re: Paris Attack

#64 Post by SR » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:39 am

denny.jpg
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Re: Paris Attack

#65 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:58 am

SR wrote:
denny.jpg
It comes up a lot with vegans I know, but it seems obvious that you don't berate a grandmother for serving turkey or going to church. But if that grandmother tried to force other families to eat turkey or go to church, or to stop doing either of those things, then you can see where things get trickier.

Liberalism and stable democracy demands a certain kind of pluralistic starting point: tolerance, not acceptance. But this is only strictly necessary within the public sphere.

This is why, for example, a magazine which publishes an op-ed criticizing a religion need not offer equal time in defense of that religion (and this has actually been an issue in the last 15 years: see Maclean's in Canada) since there's nothing preventing members of any religion from starting their own magazine and defending their views.

But what we clearly cannot tolerate are public actions that are intolerant of others. Nearly all speech, by the way, can't be intolerant in the requisite sense, because it does not infringe on any freedoms of the people it may be directed toward. (The reason why some speech isn't protected is generally, rightly or wrongly, that this speech does infringe on protected freedoms, as in hate speech or speech which incites violence.)

It is patronizing and stupid to characterize all Muslims as being incapable of reacting to offense without violence, and it is equally patronizing to think you are protecting Muslims from themselves by not insulting them, especially when it's called for. And the blasphemy rules in the hadiths (not in the Quran!) are certainly worthy of ridicule.

I always tell the story of how during Islam Awareness Week in my undergrad institution, there were posters and bristol boards set up in the student centre providing information about Muslims and Islam, and this cabal of robed students was walking around telling people to take down images they deemed to be "idolatrous" or "offensive"... and I remember talking to a group of guys about how dumb that was, and it seemed that many of them agreed but were genuinely afraid.

It was only a couple years after that that a girl was murdered by her father and brother for refusing to cover her head at school, and only a few years after that when three children and their aunt were murdered by a mother, father, and one son... ostensibly for similar "offenses".

We shouldn't foist harsh realities in the face of grandmothers, but once actions are clearly in the realm of law, we ought not to bend one iota. Western civilization, for all its faults, has made great progress in the last few hundred years. We've recently let corporations destroy much equality and rights for workers... we should probably be very careful about letting all our other rights disappear too.

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