Should we as citizens be policing each other?

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nausearockpig
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Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#1 Post by nausearockpig » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:13 pm

I see a lot of illegal and/or inconsiderate behavior on the roads, on the street, in pubs, in shops - pretty much everywhere. To be honest, it drives me a bit mental and I wonder if we as a society (and individuals within that society) should be doing more to call out others' behaviors publicly or privately in an effort to "educate" these perpetrators of inconsiderateness of if we should just buck up and accept that this is the world now and be done with it.

Some examples of stuff I see every day are:
Saturday I saw a car cross the road illegally (over a double unbroken line - within 20 metres of traffic lights (two for one there)) to get to a petrol station and in doing so almost knocked a cyclist off his bike as the cyclist was riding perfectly legally down the road. I was walking to the same petrol station to buy milk and considered confronting the driver about what he did but then decided to mind my own business and just head home.

Yesterday, as she was exiting the toilet in a pub, my wife held the door open for another woman who was heading to the loo. The other woman didn't thank her, she just went in the door as if she expected it to be open for her. She was about 10 years younger than my wife.

Other things I see on a daily basis:
People getting on trams without paying every day. Literally EVERY day.. there are ticket cops now and then on the trams but not enough if you ask me.
Drivers texting and talking when driving -this i see every single day in every part of the city and suburbs.
Riding of bikes on footpaths even though the council has put in bike lanes in these same areas
Cars making illegal turns holding up traffic to do so
Running red lights &/or speeding in well traversed areas
One of my favorites is when you're walking down the footpath taking up half, or less than half the path, and a group of two or more people are coming towards you and expect that it's OK for them to take up the entire footpath and expect you to move out of their way when in fairness one or more of them should drop behind their friends so as to stay in "their half"....

The list goes on and on but I can't be arsed typing it all out..

This isn't so much about "people are ruder then they were when I was young" that's NOT what I'm going for, there just seems to be a general "I don't give a shit if what I'm doing, be it legal or illegal, inconveniences other people, I need to do whatever it is I'm doing so fuck you".

I like to blame The Internet, and in turn Hipsters (god, so many hipsters where I live) but it can't be that can it? And more to the point, why do none, or a very small amount of us (who may then be seen as "crazy" by other non-reactive people) feel the need to pull up these "social criminals"...

Or is it just me.. and I need to chillax more?

In essence my question is : Should we each be trying to make our fellow humans better people?

I may not have articulated my thoughts particularly well, and can clarify if needed...

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perkana
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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#2 Post by perkana » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:45 pm

All I can say is that you cannot expect anyone to think like you do. Assholes will be assholes. I remember one time an ass driving his car in the wrong direction and signed me to back off. I politely told him that he was in the wrong direction only to be called names and other misogynistic actions. Same at campus, there's a huge crossing path for people walking, but cars never stop. We kinda have to group like 4-5 people to stop the cars. I wish it was easier, but as long as people are fined, they don't care at all.
I will not stop being polite or not bother anyone, but I'm not into educating people.

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nausearockpig
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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#3 Post by nausearockpig » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:26 pm

That's very true and I guess part of (my) the problem stems from differences in opinions as to what is acceptable behaviour... For instance, it seems that in the suburb in which I currently reside, it's perfectly acceptable when driving to turn illegally across unbroken lines at an intersection - causing traffic to bank up in up to all four directions and holding up trams (trams and cars share the road in some sections here). This sort of thing pisses me off, holds me up in some instances but no one seems to give a shit that what they're doing is affecting a lot of others. I've given up honking the horn at people for this sort of thing because it has no effect, they just do not give a shit that they're holding up others because they "need" to turn somewhere they're not supposed to.. :banghead: :balls:

I have found that a lot of people do not like being called out on their behaviour and when they are, it gets their back up more-so to the point where they will defend or rationalise the behaviour regardless of it being pointed out as them doing something illegal or just plain fucked.

I think it's time for implementation of a "traffic police" (that isn't standard police officers who partake in law enforcement of the sort where the cops investigate actual serious crimes) that cruise around in cars and on foot busting people for infringements of traffic rules. Oh and speed cameras and red light cameras EVERYWHERE........ that would be sweet. We went driving on the weekend (about 100 kms each way out into the country) and passed no less than five sets of fixed speed cameras on the highways. They weren't hidden either.

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kv
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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#4 Post by kv » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:09 pm

Ya have to just cope.

Not everyone was as lucky as you to be brought up the right way.
Most of the people that bug you think it's their world that revolves around them.

I used to get so mad in traffic to sporting events..where everyone is hoping to get in the parking lot before it fills...there would always be those who would drive on the shoulder to cut ahead or be half on the sidewalk...fuck them let them douches...you can be a member of the human race who isn't a self absorbed douche.

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#5 Post by nausearockpig » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:17 pm

kv wrote:Ya have to just cope.

Not everyone was as lucky as you to be brought up the right way.
Most of the people that bug you think it's their world that revolves around them.

I used to get so mad in traffic to sporting events..where everyone is hoping to get in the parking lot before it fills...there would always be those who would drive on the shoulder to cut ahead or be half on the sidewalk...fuck them let them douches...you can be a member of the human race who isn't a self absorbed douche.
yeah you're right.. I was gonna reply to each comment there countering how things "should be" but it comes off kinda "Emperor Palpatine" lol

I just wonder if there's no "control" or interaction from everyone if the world will descend into just a fucking mess... there's ol' Palpy again....

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#6 Post by Pandemonium » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:59 pm

kv wrote:Ya have to just cope.

Not everyone was as lucky as you to be brought up the right way.
Most of the people that bug you think it's their world that revolves around them.

I used to get so mad in traffic to sporting events..where everyone is hoping to get in the parking lot before it fills...there would always be those who would drive on the shoulder to cut ahead or be half on the sidewalk...fuck them let them douches...you can be a member of the human race who isn't a self absorbed douche.
Yeah, what KV sez. At some point you just gotta let the small shit go. Look at it as having pride that you have more grace and manners than the herd.

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Artemis
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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#7 Post by Artemis » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:37 pm

The only time I police my fellow citizens is if they are littering or talking loudly on cell phones on public transit. For litterers, I usually say something like, " Excuse me? I think yu dropped something." For the loud talkers I tell them they are loud and ask them to lower their voices. I don't "educate" or lecture them or anything like that. Some people feel embarrassed, others ignore me or tell me to fuck off or mind my own business. :lol:
If someone looks like they might be a little off, I don't say anything.
Also, if I've been waiting in line to get on the bus and someone buds in front of me, I say something. Oh, and if I'm exiting the subway and people start getting on before the people getting off, I say something then too. "Um, can I get off, please??" In a loud sarcastic tone. :lol:

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SR
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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#8 Post by SR » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:58 am

:lolol: Had to laugh at the line cutting thing...I generally respond (angrily)...what? am I fucking invisible? Usually works.

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perkana
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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#9 Post by perkana » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:11 pm

Artemis wrote:The only time I police my fellow citizens is if they are littering or talking loudly on cell phones on public transit. For litterers, I usually say something like, " Excuse me? I think yu dropped something." For the loud talkers I tell them they are loud and ask them to lower their voices. I don't "educate" or lecture them or anything like that. Some people feel embarrassed, others ignore me or tell me to fuck off or mind my own business. :lol:
If someone looks like they might be a little off, I don't say anything.
Also, if I've been waiting in line to get on the bus and someone buds in front of me, I say something. Oh, and if I'm exiting the subway and people start getting on before the people getting off, I say something then too. "Um, can I get off, please??" In a loud sarcastic tone. :lol:
Today happened to me something like that on the subway, some woman probably in her early 60's was so fucking annoying. The car was so crowded and she complained to another lady that she was crushing her. The lady just told her "we all are getting crushed". And then she was trying to move next to me to get a seat, doing that, she pushed at least 3 people and probably stepped on some toes. I gladly let her get the stupid seat. Weirdly, I was in a happy mood so this shit didn't get me. It just made me chuckle.

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#10 Post by creep » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:27 pm

i am not shy about saying something to someone who is doing something stupid...especially in retail/service situations. if a worker is getting unfairly abused i will say something to the person and try to make them feel stupid. i don't let these things bother me or get me angry though. i still might get a little pissed off when i drive but i am getting better with that over the years.

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Hype
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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#11 Post by Hype » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:42 pm

No.

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#12 Post by Essence_Smith » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:44 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:No.
+1

Two words: George Zimmerman... :no:

I will from time to time, politely tell people who I see doing stupid shit that I see them doing stupid shit and that if a cop sees them they might have a problem...that's as far as I go...

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#13 Post by creep » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:58 pm

Essence_Smith wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:No.
+1

Two words: George Zimmerman... :no:
:lol: says our resident anr policeman :essence:

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#14 Post by nausearockpig » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:24 pm

Essence_Smith wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:No.
+1

Two words: George Zimmerman... :no:

I will from time to time, politely tell people who I see doing stupid shit that I see them doing stupid shit and that if a cop sees them they might have a problem...that's as far as I go...
Buuuut... aren't you saying you're doing exactly what I'm asking? I may have misunderstood your intentions though. You may not be doing it while angry, or all the time, or with the intention to publicly shame someone, but from what I'm reading you still do it.

I'm guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, your intention is that they hear what you're saying, think better of the actions and then stop? Or are you just saying it with no quiet intention that they "come to their senses" and stop? And if that's the case, what's the point.

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#15 Post by Hype » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:07 pm

No. Because that would be tantamount to a return to what Hobbes calls the "state of nature" (which is a state of war of man against man). It's an absolutely stupid, idiotic idea, and it betrays a lack of understanding of the value of civil society and the rule of law.

We can politely ask other people to stop doing things we don't like *because* we have laws that would deal with them (punish, remove, etc) if they decided to attack us or punish us for being nosy. If we reverted to a state in which this was *all* we could do, it would effectively make the strongest people the rulers, or generate an iterative dilemma in which we all end up forming states again (see: prisoner's dilemma and social contract theory).

Less academically: watch this...

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#16 Post by nausearockpig » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:36 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:No. Because that would be tantamount to a return to what Hobbes calls the "state of nature" (which is a state of war of man against man). It's an absolutely stupid, idiotic idea, and it betrays a lack of understanding of the value of civil society and the rule of law.

We can politely ask other people to stop doing things we don't like *because* we have laws that would deal with them (punish, remove, etc) if they decided to attack us or punish us for being nosy. If we reverted to a state in which this was *all* we could do, it would effectively make the strongest people the rulers, or generate an iterative dilemma in which we all end up forming states again (see: prisoner's dilemma and social contract theory).
To be clear, the transgressions in question I'm more concerned about are not things I "don't like", though general rudeness, thoughtlessness, hipster-sense-of-entitlement etc do annoy me but yes, these things are not something I see as being able to be addressed in a societal manner, they are actions that are illegal and have flow-on effects to those around the transgressor. Hence them being illegal I guess. An example I see dozens of times each day I venture out in my suburb, and I did mention this in an earlier post, is when a driver will hold up traffic for anywhere from one to four directions at an intersection by turning right across a double unbroken line which indicates "no turn". This person should by rights be fined by law enforcement as this action is against the law for reasons, I assume, of traffic flow and public safety, but there are almost no police in this area and when they do cruise down the main drag, the Five-Oh are on their way somewhere else, presumably to deal with bigger, more important things than traffic infringements.

Perhaps the answer is (as previously mentioned) an "in-between" traffic/police force that does not involve itself with "real" crime, or give more powers to, and employ more council staff to police traffic laws, OR just have more actual law enforcement policing every corner and watching our every move... but I'm sure some people would have an issue with this... . :bigrin:

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#17 Post by Hype » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:29 pm

If private citizens started directing traffic, stopping speeders, and other offenders., we'd have anarchy and chaos very quickly. It's a dumb idea, and potentially a dangerous one.

The fact that you don't like the illegal behavior of others doesn't mean we need to police it at all. We don't need "street monitors" (like elementary school hall monitors) to stop most jay-walkers... just because it may annoy moralizing busybodies and strung-out drivers. If jaywalking became such a common concern that people were killed repeatedly or a lot of property damage and traffic obstruction were occurring, then, sure, we might need to do something about it. But that's generally not the case, so it would be absurd to call for a need to prosecute the crime with higher effectiveness or consistency.

But this really does amount to you perceiving other people behaving in a way you don't like, which also may happen to be illegal, and you not liking that they're getting away with it. But that doesn't necessarily point to a need for anyone to do anything, except maybe for you to chill out a little. :wink:

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#18 Post by nausearockpig » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:55 pm

What then is the point of laws about "small things"? And where do you draw the line? Is speeding "a little bit" OK? If so, who decides how much is OK? and if that's the case there's always going to be those that argue that that little is not enough and it should be more which would eventually get to the point where some people would be vying for no speed limits or traffic rules. :noclue:

True, just because I disagree with certain behaviours does NOT mean something "should" be done about it.. I really am trying to chill more but fuck you should see the shit I see on a daily basis...

I might move to the country and raise livestock....

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#19 Post by mockbee » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:57 pm

Nausea, if you are really concerned about a particular intersection and see infringements that you deem dangerous repeatedly, I would suggest calling the police (non-emergency/traffic enforcement) and report it, and maybe have a couple buddies report it as well. It is likely they will perform a sting of that particular intersection, if in fact there are reported accidents as well. If there really is no "danger" at that intersection and it is just annoying, then yeah, just chill out.....

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#20 Post by nausearockpig » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:32 pm

mockbee, you're probably right.... on both counts.

I took my usual walk to the post office today at lunch (to see if my Secret Santa had arrived (it has not :sad: ) ) and as a fun experiment counted the traffic infringements along my ten minute, 800 metre trip (total there and back).. here they are for your pleasure:

Illegal turns: 9
Cyclist running a red light (and almost hitting me): 1
Vehicles parked over driveways: 2
Jaywalking: 3
Truck being unloaded in the middle of a street by a forklift and blocking traffic when it should've been in the dock: 1

Fashion Crimes that should REALLY be sorted out:
Hipster with a MASSIVE woodsman-type beard: 1
Old guy wearing braces and a belt: 1

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#21 Post by Hype » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:50 pm

Are we sure you're not Walter Matthau or Jack Lemmon?

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perkana
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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#22 Post by perkana » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:21 am

creep wrote:i am not shy about saying something to someone who is doing something stupid...especially in retail/service situations. if a worker is getting unfairly abused i will say something to the person and try to make them feel stupid. i don't let these things bother me or get me angry though. i still might get a little pissed off when i drive but i am getting better with that over the years.
I agree with this, people should help others who are discriminated or treated poorly. Here people sometimes exagerate minding their own business. I agree with Hyper about not patrolling others for stupid things (maybe I will be like that, in 20-25 years, but I really hope not). But I've seen many cases in which waiters or clerks get verbally abused by some douchebag. That's the only thing that I hate about living in a big city.

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#23 Post by perkana » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:24 am

nausearockpig wrote: Hipster with a MASSIVE woodsman-type beard: 1
I would like more hipsters with those kind of beards. Actually, that's one of my goals this year. I'm going to date some guy with a massive beard. Not interested in anything else :lol:

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#24 Post by Essence_Smith » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:49 am

nausearockpig wrote:
Essence_Smith wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:No.
+1

Two words: George Zimmerman... :no:

I will from time to time, politely tell people who I see doing stupid shit that I see them doing stupid shit and that if a cop sees them they might have a problem...that's as far as I go...
Buuuut... aren't you saying you're doing exactly what I'm asking? I may have misunderstood your intentions though. You may not be doing it while angry, or all the time, or with the intention to publicly shame someone, but from what I'm reading you still do it.

I'm guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, your intention is that they hear what you're saying, think better of the actions and then stop? Or are you just saying it with no quiet intention that they "come to their senses" and stop? And if that's the case, what's the point.
I pick my spots, but I see shit all day long that is inconsiderate, illegal, etc and I let it go because if you walk around NY even politely telling anyone they shouldn't do something, etc someone will eventually tell you to go fuck yourself.

I just try to remind people of the consequences of what they're doing... I fully don't expect it to make one hell of a difference. I will more often say something to a kid than I would an adult. Like if I see a kid about to hop a turnstile on the subway I'll tell him that these days they don't give you a ticket and they'll likely arrest them for it if they're caught. If they still hop its on them but my things are more to prevent people from getting themselves into shit rather than me trying to get people to behave because they're annoying me...

@creep: I learned a lot from people here about "policing" grown folks...none of you fucks listened when we were shooting shit at each other on xiola...I and a few other people tried to make points on it, me being the most consistent and eventually Sonny took his ball and ran with it and the rest is history...you guys mobilized and got this board going (which I'll always appreciate) and then and only then did people collectively begin to address each other in a generally more civil fashion...the stuff I was complaining about was legit but I guess some including you couldn't handle ME saying it so often...if that made me the police in your eyes so be it, but I know I wasn't wrong for making the point... :wave:

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Re: Should we as citizens be policing each other?

#25 Post by kv » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:25 pm

You were wrong for the point....you were wrong for ramming it down our throats again and again and again and ya

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