Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

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mockbee
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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#161 Post by mockbee » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:28 am

I dont normally watch these "debates".....yeeesh! That was awful! :confused:
I kept shouting, never squibble! Rule #1 of persuasion!

All they were missing was Jerry Springer. I about imagined someone missing coming out from the audience with a folding chair chasing a candidate around the room... :lol:

Bloomberg look/sounded terrible as I remembered. The Wizard of Oz would have done himself a world of good by staying off the stage, and behind the curtain. Would have come out looking like a saint in comparison. :nod:

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#162 Post by Pandemonium » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:12 pm

Most of the debate, it was like a circular firing squad, especially with Warren flaying about going after everyone else. At one point, it was old white guys arguing about stents and which wealthy guy had more/better houses. You can bet Trump has to feel good after seeing/hearing about the debate, especially if he's gonna go against Sanders, Biden or Bloomberg in future debates.

Amy didn't handle Pete's attacks well. By the end of the debate, it looked like she was close to tears. Whatever momentum she had last week is going to dissipate in the coming couple weeks which is a shame, as she seems the most level headed of the bunch. As for Pete himself, I could care less if he's gay or not, but he came off again as willing to pander to any demographic, cause, etc with outlandish proposals at the drop of a hat right down to speaking Spanish in his last go-round with Amy.

Captain Shouty Biden's run is on life support. Warren may have gained a bit more time thanks to Bloombergy wearing the "Kick Me" sign on his face, but I just don't see her making it to the convention. As for Bloomberg, his line "I am pumping millions of dollars into the Democratic Party" speaks volumes that he has the best chance of getting the nomination regardless of Mikey being Trump Light.

Bernie is really the only one I can say I'm impressed with as far as focus, fire and commitment. Although by the last 10 minutes, his face was turning beet red and I thought he was going to explode, Scanners-style. It's too bad I am 180 degrees opposed to his agenda. Summarizing his overall agenda seems to be "let's reward mediocrity" and "what works for Norway will work for America."

My take away is that I have no doubt this will be a contested Dem convention and I think the remaining candidates know it. Their answers to the last question with everyone but Sanders saying let the Dem "rules" (which seem to change on a $whim$ these days) play out versus the delegate tally spoke volumes that the fix is in if Sanders doesn't have an overwhelming majority of delegates. Not sure who is going to be left standing at the end of the primary, but they are going to be beat up, and there are going to be a lot of angry followers of the loser(s) who are gonna be pissed at the nominee.

I'll add it's safe bet Biden and Sanders or Buttigieg and Klobuchar won’t be choosing each other as running mates if they make the nomination, heh heh.

And not a peep from anyone up there about the deficit. Neither party seems to care about that topic anymore and it's going to bite this country in the ass sooner rather than later. The Dem message is more taxes and multi-trillion dollar government programs for (name your pet program).

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#163 Post by Artemis » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:45 pm

Pandemonium wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:12 pm

Amy didn't handle Pete's attacks well. By the end of the debate, it looked like she was close to tears. Whatever momentum she had last week is going to dissipate in the coming couple weeks which is a shame, as she seems the most level headed of the bunch. As for Pete himself, I could care less if he's gay or not, but he came off again as willing to pander to any demographic, cause, etc with outlandish proposals at the drop of a hat right down to speaking Spanish in his last go-round with Amy.
Agree with you about Pete. Imo, he comes across as a phony and out of touch.

I still like Amy and think she'll come out of this okay.

I felt sorry for Joe Biden, he should just drop out to preserve some dignity.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#164 Post by chaos » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:29 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

‘It’s going to take a rich guy to beat Trump’: Why some Democrats back Bloomberg

By Philip Rucker
Feb. 21, 2020 at 6:00 a.m. EST

STOCKTON, Calif. — Mike Bloomberg's rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination clamor that the White House is not for sale — not even for a buyer worth $60 billion. On the debate stage as well as the campaign trail, they castigate him as an out-of-touch plutocrat unfairly injecting hundreds of millions of dollars into the political system to manipulate democracy.

Yet here in Stockton, a central California crossroads where low-wage warehouse workers feel left out of the economic boom and the bustling immigrant community has been under siege by President Trump’s crackdown, voters have a different take on Bloomberg’s wealth.

Many Democrats here said they didn’t know that much about the former New York mayor until he started popping up on television in recent weeks. But after an unprecedented advertising blitz in the run-up to the March 3 “Super Tuesday” contests — when California’s primary will be the biggest prize of all — they have begun repeating Bloomberg’s slogan: “Mike will get it done.”

Lynn Silva, 66, a retired special-education instructor for incarcerated adults, is a lifelong Democrat. The Trump era has made her so anxious and so worried for the country that she can no longer stand to listen to the television when the president is speaking. Her list of favorites to run against him is long and ever-changing, but she is starting to conclude that Bloomberg, hardly her first choice to be the Democratic standard-bearer, may be “the ultimate candidate” for a coldly calculated reason: He has the money to win.

“I don’t care that he’s a billionaire trying to buy the election,” she said. “If that’s what it takes to beat Trump, that’s fine. I loved [Sen. Kamala D. Harris], but look at her: Out. I loved [Sen.] Cory Booker, but look at him: Out. No money.”

“These aren’t regular times,” Silva added. “We’ve got to get Trump out. That’s the bottom line.”


Bloomberg is banking, literally, on Democratic voters across California and throughout the nation arriving at a similar conclusion. He hopes they will look past this week’s feeble debate performance, ignore his history as a Republican and tune out the allegations of misogyny and racial insensitivities in his past — deciding that the imperative to defeat Trump is so great that they can persuade themselves to love the multibillionaire simply because he’s a multibillionaire.

Bloomberg, who founded a media and information company that bears his name, is worth an estimated $60 billion and has pledged to spend whatever it takes to win. He has been a candidate for just three months, but his campaign has reported spending a staggering $464 million through Feb. 1 — $259 million of that on television advertising.

Bloomberg’s candidacy is challenging the adage in politics that buying your way into office is a net negative. Instead, Bloomberg is pitching his wealth as one of his greatest assets.

“I’m a philanthropist who didn’t inherit his money but made his money, and I’m spending that money to get rid of Donald Trump, the worst president we have ever had,” Bloomberg said in Wednesday night’s debate. “And if I can get that done, it will be a great contribution to America and to my kids.”

The other Democratic candidates ascribed darker motives to Bloomberg. Pete Buttigieg, the former mayor of South Bend, Ind., said Bloomberg “thinks he can buy this election.”

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) blasted Bloomberg for embodying “a corrupt political system” and warned that “real change never takes place from the top on down, never takes place from an oligarchy controlled by billionaires.”

And Sen. Elizabeth Warren (Mass.) likened Bloomberg to Trump, warning that “Democrats take a huge risk if we just substitute one arrogant billionaire for another.”

Yet here in California, where recent polls show Sanders leading the field and Bloomberg rising into contention, one likely primary voter after another said they were warming to the former New York mayor.

As he was getting off work at a shopping mall in Stockton, Michael Rabago, 25, said that he wants more than anything to deny Trump a second term — and that Bloomberg’s billions make him the guy to do it.

“Money buys votes, and I just hope Trump doesn’t win again,” Rabago said. “I think it’s going to take a rich guy to beat Trump. I personally want Bernie to win, but money is everything. That’s sad to say, but that’s how it is. I always see Bloomberg’s commercials on TV: ‘Mike for 2020.’ ”

Faidrian Smith, 49, said she has decided to vote for Bloomberg for a simple reason: “If you don’t have the money to fight him, Trump is going to win the election. Period.”
Smith, who is black and works as a driver for a food-delivery service, said as she dashed into a restaurant here to pick up a customer’s order that she feels a personal imperative to defeat Trump.

“He’s made racism so blunt and in-your-face now, and we have to change that,” Smith said. “I’m not saying Mike Bloomberg should buy the election. But money helps. It makes him stronger.”

Bloomberg’s wealth was a turnoff for some other voters here. Diana Gatewood, 61, a retired special-needs care worker, said, “He’s trying to buy our votes. It does take money to make the world go around, but just because he’s a billionaire doesn’t mean he’s doing right by people.”

Gatewood said she has not decided whom to vote for in the March 3 primary, but she’s leaning toward Sanders, Sen. Amy Klobuchar (Minn.) and Tom Steyer, another billionaire who is self-funding his campaign but has had far more limited success than Bloomberg.

Synthia, 57, a retired parole officer who declined to provide her last name for fear of political retribution, acknowledged that Bloomberg’s billions would prove helpful in the general election but said she was disinclined to vote for him.

“How does he help the people — the underdogs, the working-class, the blue-collar?” she asked. “I think he’s playing a political game. . . . We’re not pawns in a game. We’re people with lives. At the end of the day, we go home to our bills and our stressors, and these billionaires go home to their rich lives.”

Bloomberg has a prominent and enthusiastic champion here in Michael Tubbs, Stockton’s dynamic young black mayor and a self-described liberal Democrat.
Tubbs, 29, was elected mayor on the same night in 2016 that Trump was elected president, and he quickly began to fully comprehend what Trump’s presidency meant for his city of about 311,000.

In his first few months as mayor, Tubbs said, he spent most of his time not on crime or roads or other typical municipal matters, but on immigration — specifically, trying to reassure his constituents, roughly one-third of whom are foreign-born, that despite the president’s rhetoric and the harsh crackdown on illegal immigration that he authorized, they would continue to have sanctuary in Stockton.

“Donald Trump is literally an existential threat,” Tubbs said. “Their way of life, their way of being, their way of interacting in the community has been changed by his presidency, and the top priority has to be to get him out.”

Tubbs described Stockton as a microcosm of America, a diverse melting pot in which 45 percent of residents are white and the median household income is just $51,000, according to U.S. Census Bureau data. The city is a transportation and logistics hub, meaning many jobs here pay low wages, at least relative to Silicon Valley and California’s other booming metropolises.

Tubbs is a sort-of Bloomberg protege. He graduated from a Harvard University mayoral training program that Bloomberg funds and said he tries to model his use of data in running Stockton’s municipal affairs after Bloomberg’s administration in New York.

As he considered which candidate to support for president, Tubbs first gravitated toward Harris, one of his home state’s Democratic senators. But once she was out of the race, he eyed Bloomberg, who agreed to make Stockton his first stop in California as a candidate.

Since Bloomberg’s visit here in December, Tubbs has been an evangelist for his candidacy, explaining to his working- and middle-class constituents why they should put their faith in a Manhattan billionaire.

“I tell people, ‘Beating Donald Trump is the top priority,’ ” Tubbs said. “Donald Trump and the Republican Party are playing to win.” By nominating one of the other candidates, Tubbs argued, Democrats would be “unilaterally disarming” in the face of Trump’s campaign war chest.

“You can’t beat Donald Trump with no money,” Tubbs said. “It’s just not happening. You’re going to have to have the resources to compete and also to build up the infrastructure in states so that something like Donald Trump doesn’t happen again, and Bloomberg has shown a willingness to do that.”


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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#165 Post by Six7Six7 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:27 pm

I don't think this is what the founding fathers had in mind.

Pretend Billionaire vs. Real Billionaire to see who gets to be the most powerful man in the world seems a little.... fucked up.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#166 Post by mockbee » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:40 pm

Oh don't worry, I dont see Bloomberg going anywhere.

If he is lucky he'll get a couple delegates. And if DNC chooses him in Milwaukie, the whole city would blow up in protests by Bernie people....

I think just to a greater degree than when they choose Biden as the compromise..
:noclue:

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#167 Post by Hokahey » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:35 pm

I loathe Trump as a person. But I'm enjoying this economy.

And using Bernie's own calculator I'll come out in the red under his economic plan.

Sooo.... :noclue:

Also, as a mortgage lender, I don't appreciate how much people like Warren demonize my profession and industry. I work my ass off to take good care of people. Most of my colleagues do as well. The things that most hinder my ability to give people a great experience are the bureaucratic regulations that were created by people with no concept how this business works. Yes they've effectively handcuffed us. Great. Can't lend money with my hands behind my back. Oh, now bitch at us some more how we're not lending enough to the disadvantaged because of YOUR rules.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#168 Post by SR » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:32 pm

For anyone who'd like to see where they would fall under Bernie's tax plan according to his calculator. I came out a bit in the red as well

https://www.bernietax.com/#150000;5277;s

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#169 Post by Hype » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:09 am

Sounds like you guys are doing pretty well. It's worth considering how your kids will do, too, no? And also whether you're willing to make a small sacrifice to help make things better for more people in your community, or state, or whatever.

There are reams of academic work on calculations of social benefits in this way. The most famous one, politically, maybe other than Piketty, would be Rawls' "Justice as Fairness". The main point is that it's actually in the interests of wealthier (even if not ultrawealthy) to participate in some forms of distributive justice (i.e., redistribution of wealth) because it ultimately comes out better for everyone, including the wealthier people. Often the benefits are just difficult to quantify because they're not reflected in the immediate economic trade-off.

For what it's worth, despite not living in the US, I put in my info and I'd come out in the green on Bernie's plan. :cool:

I played with the numbers a bit and it looks like it's almost entirely based on whether you have healthcare expenses, and whether you report more than $12,200 of income per person (is this a minimum tax-exemption? It looks like it.) If you have zero healthcare expenses, your taxes will go up (even if only very, very slightly) at all incomes above 12,200 for a single earner.

The amount you report in healthcare expenses is subtracted from that amount. So if you plug in any filing, with $12,200 (or 24,400 for married-jointly) income and zero healthcare, your disposable income stays the same. Put in a dollar for healthcare and it saves you that dollar. Put in one dollar higher for income ($12,201) and you pay 4 (four) more cents in tax. :lol:
Last edited by Hype on Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#170 Post by SR » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:18 am

Whoa, who you callin you guys? :essence: :lol:

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#171 Post by Hype » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:23 am

SR wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:18 am
Whoa, who you callin you guys? :essence: :lol:
All you fat-cats. :wave:

As I note above, the calculator assumes you're reporting taxable income. It's not clear what deductions will be permitted under Bernie's plan. If deductions stay the same, you might get to report a quite low taxable income and still save or break fairly even.

If I were an American I'd want to pay slightly more tax to have Medicare for All.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#172 Post by Hokahey » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:37 pm

Hype wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:23 am
SR wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:18 am
Whoa, who you callin you guys? :essence: :lol:
All you fat-cats. :wave:

As I note above, the calculator assumes you're reporting taxable income. It's not clear what deductions will be permitted under Bernie's plan. If deductions stay the same, you might get to report a quite low taxable income and still save or break fairly even.

If I were an American I'd want to pay slightly more tax to have Medicare for All.
So would I. Without a question. That's not one of the aspects of Bernie's governing plans that concerns me.

Actually, that's not entirely true. I'm not convinced it can be paid for as outlined and that my income will.only decrease as much as the calculator says.

I already lose an incredible amount of my income to taxes. As does my wife.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#173 Post by SR » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:31 pm

No fat cat here. We earn a very livable wage; it has fluctuated a great deal over the years for various reasons. Money has never been very important to me. I have never been a "car" guy or a clothing guy. I like to travel, but have never sprung for Europe. I test drove a Mercedes about 10 years ago and my wife wouldn't go with me. She laughed at me when I got back. I came to my senses and realized I need a beater for the snow, the beach and the ubiquitous GR we've had for 30 years. I shopped and bought a car I believed at the time, and still believe will be the last one I ever own.

It's funny how my thinking has changed on it though. I listen to news reports on really mundane stuff like 405 projects that are worth X billions of dollars and to be completed by 20-30's or 40's and I do the math to guestimate whether I will be alive for it. I read scientific projections and feel glad I won't be around to see it. I value money more because I want my kiddo to have a simpler/easier life. Not one that will allow him to snort coke off hooker's asses until his heart explodes, but one that will launch him with advantage. I will happen (it already has as I lost a sister way too young who left a nice bundle to her niece and nephews). He also knows that he wound up with a fortunate roll of the cosmic dice. He was raised to be confident and void of guilt, but with a firm knowledge that many, many other people just like him (or smarter) will struggle against infrastructures that prevent them from attaining what he already has. He was also taught to think critically and to make conclusions and life decisions based on where his reasoning and humanity steer him. For the most part, he does and will continue to. As times have changed, I think I may have done him a disservice where this is concerned, but there's no going back, and well...he's just about 25 and there's no going back.

We pay healthy taxes, especially here in Cali. I have never thought much on them, but would gladly pay more so that people less fortunate have health care secured for themselves, their parents, and their kids....or a healthy planet, and much much more.

I have been firmly in the Bernie camp for quite some time. Frankly, I think his vision or anyone's who mirrors it is far too good for this country.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#174 Post by kv » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:21 pm

Shops for Benzs...gets offended when called a fat cat :slap:

You see so much of that in LA...there are some many levels of wealth here most of the rich "feel" they aren't...I was the same way growing up...I felt poor in the nice neighborhood my folks moved us to because we were basically check to check and rented...no winter ski trips for me...I was "poor" I had to get a paper route to have money to do anything...of course I grew up to clue in we were just an average blue collar, middle class family in in an area too expensive for us (my folks wanted the small city school district for us vs la unified)

It's the same with how most pro athletes go broke a few years after they retire...because once you get the money...the 3 bedroom 2 bath dream means nothing to your peers anymore...where is your mansion? Your cars? You can't keep up...you can't stay on the level of those with more than you...and they go broke trying...then they just wish they'd bought and paid off that 3 and 2 again...

Perspective can be a bitch

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#175 Post by SR » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:34 pm

Not offended at anything...thought it weird I was lumped in with anyone who's comment was anything close to, "I hate Trump, but I like y tax situation; under Bernie I'd suffer some loss".

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#176 Post by Hype » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:54 pm

I wasn't seriously calling either of you fat-cats. That calculator really doesn't say very much, to be honest, because everyone's situation is different. All it does is show you that if you have healthcare costs, you'll save those, even if your overall tax rate goes up.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#177 Post by Hype » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:20 pm

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... -care-tax/
For single minimum-wage workers, the marginal income tax rate would stay at 12%, assuming current federal tax brackets remained the same if Congress passed a $15 minimum wage. The rate for married couples that jointly file taxes would increase from 10% to 12%, assuming their total household income is $31,200.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#178 Post by Hokahey » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:13 pm

SR wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:34 pm
Not offended at anything...thought it weird I was lumped in with anyone who's comment was anything close to, "I hate Trump, but I like y tax situation; under Bernie I'd suffer some loss".
I know. God forbid you be lumped in to that. How ghastly.

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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#179 Post by SR » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:25 pm


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Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#180 Post by mockbee » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:32 pm

Hype wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:20 pm

For single minimum-wage workers, the marginal income tax rate would stay at 12%, assuming current federal tax brackets remained the same if Congress passed a $15 minimum wage. The rate for married couples that jointly file taxes would increase from 10% to 12%, assuming their total household income is $31,200.
What family could possibly live okay on $31k a year......
Also...
Why are minimum wage workers, who aren't kids, paying any income taxes anyways.........?

They are already probably paying sales tax as most states have that, and in effect property taxes, even if they most likely rent as its effectively passed down in the monthly payments.... :noclue:

Also minimum wage for service employees in 24 states is less than $3/hr and that is where all these "great" jobs are.....https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/ ... age/tipped

I know a lot of that is in states the coastal Elite call deplorable and don't give a shit about.... But I can see why they are so pissed and look for someone to break the whole thing to smithereens. That should be the focus. They don't think raising taxes for social programs is the solution. Wages and fairly distributing the actual wealth should be the focus. They'll do fine, just get them their fair share of the wealth. And don't tell them to suck it up and pay more taxes for the greater good. And this applies more to the people who've "made it" at $50K for a family....they don't want and can't afford increased income taxes....
:noclue:

:wavesad:

If you aren't concerned about increased taxes, you've certainly made it and are wealthy. And it baffles me that they dont understand how that could be a problem for a ton of people.... :nod:

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