Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

Discussion relating to current events, politics, religion, etc
Message
Author
User avatar
drwintercreeper
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:57 am

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#41 Post by drwintercreeper » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:25 am

“On a policy level, he’s one of the most conservative Democrats in the field. He doesn’t concretely support Medicare for All, except in some “it would be great, eventually!” sense. He voted against free public college. He makes vague noises about liking the Green New Deal without signing on. He gets money from oil and gas executives, and thus he won’t take a hard position against fossil fuels. He folded on the Israel Iron Dome question under the slightest pressure, he voted to let Obama negotiate the Trans-Pacific Partnership (which cost him the AFL-CIO endorsement in his race against Cruz), and the sheer amount of awful Republican bills he’s supported is enough to fill an entire article.”


I am okay with all of this. He stands a decent shot at winning compared to some of the other dems, and he will guide our ship down into the abyss hopefully a little slower than these other clowns. In the long run we are still spending too much money on shit. Bernie and company will drag it down that much faster with 50 trillon dollar wishlists, and we see how serious the repubs are about deficits and the national debt. Maybe i am being too pessimistic but 20 years from now we will still spend too much on domestic programs, and we will still face russia and china etc. as intl rivals and thus spend way too much on preventing revisions to the intl order, so if those things dont change, and we dont change, we are fucked.

Beto!!!!! Impurity 202020

User avatar
Hype
Posts: 6579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#42 Post by Hype » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:35 am

I think there might be good reasons to vote 'meh' to get rid of Trump. :lol:

User avatar
mockbee
Posts: 2265
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 am

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#43 Post by mockbee » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:03 pm

Beto seems fine in his emphatic mealymouthness. It could be a winning strategy if he makes a stand out from the crowd celebrity status of himself and stays confidently vague.
:noclue:

The instant he apologizes for anything though or seems too contrived, he will be finished in the primary (or general if he makes it there)

He should follow Trumps lead in that respect.

He seems too contrived to me already, but I thought that about Obama as well, until he was actually able to pull it out.

User avatar
guysmiley
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:46 pm
Location: PDX/Fukuoka Japan

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#44 Post by guysmiley » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:56 pm

I just want to kill myself. Welcome to the honest world.

User avatar
guysmiley
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:46 pm
Location: PDX/Fukuoka Japan

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#45 Post by guysmiley » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:02 pm

Honestly I think I should invest in bunkers rather than pay for my impossible student debt.

User avatar
Hype
Posts: 6579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#46 Post by Hype » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:51 pm

mockbee wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:03 pm
Beto seems fine in his emphatic mealymouthness. It could be a winning strategy if he makes a stand out from the crowd celebrity status of himself and stays confidently vague.
:noclue:

The instant he apologizes for anything though or seems too contrived, he will be finished in the primary (or general if he makes it there)

He should follow Trumps lead in that respect.

He seems too contrived to me already, but I thought that about Obama as well, until he was actually able to pull it out.
Yeah. It's a meh from me. That Buttigieg guy is more interesting, but can't win with that name (as stupid as that is...).

The Democrats can secure the popular vote overall easily, but unless they have a workable strategy for handling the flyover / rust-belt shit they're doomed.

User avatar
guysmiley
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:46 pm
Location: PDX/Fukuoka Japan

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#47 Post by guysmiley » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:08 pm

Hype wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:51 pm
mockbee wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:03 pm
Beto seems fine in his emphatic mealymouthness. It could be a winning strategy if he makes a stand out from the crowd celebrity status of himself and stays confidently vague.
:noclue:

The instant he apologizes for anything though or seems too contrived, he will be finished in the primary (or general if he makes it there)

He should follow Trumps lead in that respect.

He seems too contrived to me already, but I thought that about Obama as well, until he was actually able to pull it out.
Yeah. It's a meh from me. That Buttigieg guy is more interesting, but can't win with that name (as stupid as that is...).

The Democrats can secure the popular vote overall easily, but unless they have a workable strategy for handling the flyover / rust-belt shit they're doomed.
They are doomed. And sharing extreme ideology will fuck us all.

User avatar
guysmiley
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:46 pm
Location: PDX/Fukuoka Japan

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#48 Post by guysmiley » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:13 pm


User avatar
Hype
Posts: 6579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#49 Post by Hype » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:02 am

guysmiley wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:08 pm
And sharing extreme ideology will fuck us all.
Not sure what you mean by this. Explain?

User avatar
Hype
Posts: 6579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#50 Post by Hype » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:59 am

Many years ago I said that Obama would win the nom over Clinton, despite my preference for Clinton at the time, because Americans are racist, but way, way more misogynist. Turns out that's still true.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 2fa7d76f07
In part, that’s because, as Jill Filipovic reminds us, we judge women by their accomplishments but men by their potential. Ambition in a man is considered admirable, while it’s considered threatening in a woman.

We’ve seen this time and again. Hillary Clinton’s popularity bounced up and down depending on whether she was seeking an office. Or take Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.). Back in 2016, many on the left held up Warren as everything they wanted in a presidential candidate. The key, though, was that Warren wasn’t running. Once she did run, many of those same people decided they weren’t so enamored of her after all. She used to be brilliant and charismatic; now people have decided she’s an inauthentic schoolmarm.

User avatar
chaos
Posts: 4402
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:23 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#51 Post by chaos » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:53 pm

And then there were 19 . . .

Image

Image
2020 Democratic presidential candidates are seen in a combination of file photos (L-R top row): U.S. Senators Bernie Sanders, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar, and Kirsten Gillibrand. (L-R middle row): Former Texas congressman Beto O'Rourke, U.S. Representatives Tulsi Gabbard, John Delaney, Eric Swalwell, Tim Ryan, and former HUD Secretary Julian Castro. (L-R bottom row): Mayor Pete Buttigieg, Former Gov. John Hickenlooper, Gov. Jay Inslee, Andrew Yang, Marianne Williamson, and Mayor Wayne Messam. REUTERS/Files
Rep. Seth Moulton of Massachusetts

User avatar
mockbee
Posts: 2265
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 am

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#52 Post by mockbee » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:51 pm

Jeb... I mean JOE has entered the race!


And he's already called anita to say he's sorry. :conf:

Well, it should be amusing anyways......:eyes:

User avatar
SR
Posts: 6851
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:56 pm

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#53 Post by SR » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:46 am

That long article on Bet read like a Russian bot/prop piece. There is a massive divide in the Dem party, obviously. There is danger in amplifying the Trump narratives and providing fuel for new ones, but only in the states that put him over the top. Obviously any candidate has to work hard there. Trump still enjoys around a 90% approval rating among Republicans nationally. Young people are key again as are the supporters of the candidates that are polling in the 8% range. Kamala's and Beto's base are needed as well. She very well could become a running mate to either Bernie or Biden. I see the kiddos screaming for generational change will side with Bernie after seeing (or being reminded of) the disastrous results of their revolt in '16. Still a ton of time. I am firmly with Bernie unless someone else gets the nod, then "meh"

Yang's support could be very useful as well. Though a small sample to draw any scientific conclusions, my son's friends from UCLA all really like him, but they also hold Bernie in high regard....still.

User avatar
mockbee
Posts: 2265
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 am

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#54 Post by mockbee » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:26 am

As much as I hate Trump and his brand of bigoted crony capitalism, I just don't see Bernie doing well against him.

Both Bernie and Warren are playing a very short game.
Overburden students and their parents who took loans they cannot repay is a terrible injustice in our system. But outright forgiveness will just create massive divisions between those that struggled and did and/or plan to pay their loans and those that are in trouble. The long game is way more complicated than either Bernie and Warren are making it out to be. This is true for most of their policies.

This is the map I see if Bernie is the Dem candidate. :noclue:
(in fact, I think I am being a little kind to Bernie in this map, I could definitely see Virginia and Colorado go to Trump)

Image

User avatar
SR
Posts: 6851
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:56 pm

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#55 Post by SR » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:03 pm

I see your point, but the backlash from people not included in forgiveness is a bit like lamenting those who avoided polio because of Dr. Salk. Bernie's policies are not new and they gained a great deal of traction back in the '16 race...so much so that other major candidates have eagerly adopted them. I don't want to get to burdened down with this single policy, but NYU med school has established an endowment that will pay for every medical student it ever trains in perpetuity. The state of Tennessee, an immovable conservative state, has started free college for those who have never received training otherwise with fantastic results. Radicalism has been a proven winning formula as trump has demonstrated. Moderates like Biden will have some work cut out for them in terms of attempting to indoctrinate the new, younger progressives. As I said earlier, I hope they have learned a lesson from '16.

Time will tell. Bernie is about 6 1/2 points behind Biden on the day after his announcement. The map you displayed is from Realclearpolitics if I'm not mistaken and as far as polling goes, they seem to represent the most diverse representation of polls state and nationwide.

Women and college educated men are key to disrupting Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Colorado, and maybe (though not likely) Ohio.

User avatar
mockbee
Posts: 2265
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 am

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#56 Post by mockbee » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:44 pm

Tennessee free college is a good example to follow. However, relying on lottery dollars effectively is a huge regressive tax. That came about in 2014, a couple years before Bernie was on the national radar.
Even though it is popular, I rather doubt implementing Tennessee Promise today would work in that state because of our messed up tribal politics. :noclue:

If Bernie just stuck with free college as a workforce development plan, that is a winner.
Pell grant ($6,095/yr) to anyone that applies to the public school/community college of your choice, with incentives to stay in state, close to home.

Here is $50,000 forgiveness for college (Warren's plan) for the sake of going to college, no good.

I would actually say "fairness" is a huge issue, it is the defining issue why people vote.
Flat out handouts to 'elites' who can "afford" fancy schools would go over very poorly with working class folks.

Here is a comment about Warren's plan that makes a lot of sense.
I recently finished paying off my student debt. I know all about the obscenity of the exploding cost of college and the inability to refinance loans. I also grew up in the suburbs that every pundit says is so key for Democrats to take the White House in 2020. In fact my parents' Congressional district was among those that flipped red to blue this last midterm. Let me assure you: a plan to simply forgive student debt is going to play VERY badly with these voters. These are people who have typically benefited from structural advantages far more than they care to admit (my parents are your typical "everything I have is because of my own hard work" mentality, which obviously is easy to say when you were born into these very same well-to-do suburbs). Blatant handouts are met with knee-jerk repulsion. Tell the neighbors I grew up with that their tax dollars will go to bail out someone who took out $100k to go student Russian Literature at NYU and then -shock!- didn't spin that into a 6 figure salary, and watch these suburban voters swing right back to Trump en masse. What would play better to these voters? Solutions that reward hard work. Some loan forgiveness for legitimate community service. An interest plan where interest grows a bit each year, rather than slamming new graduates with the full rate and not giving them a moment to breathe. Incentives for paying off more than your monthly due. There must be other creative solutions to this, but handouts aren't the answer.

User avatar
SR
Posts: 6851
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:56 pm

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#57 Post by SR » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:56 am

I think his/her argument is horrible, but I do understand that bitterness forged from comparisons to unknown people who share the planet is a thing. It did make me think that EW could be as polarizing as HC. Lock Them Up! :balls: :boobs: :balls:

User avatar
mockbee
Posts: 2265
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 am

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#58 Post by mockbee » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:34 am

I think this gets to the heart of divide here.

Is anyone who sacrifices to play by the rules that are rigged against them and struggles, but gets by, and then questions why those that are more privileged than themselves would receive massive assistance a bad/bitter person?

Understanding that nuance I think would go a huge way towards workable progress. :noclue:

User avatar
SR
Posts: 6851
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:56 pm

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#59 Post by SR » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:54 am

Mind you, I am not advocating for the top 1%, or 5, or 25 to seek and obtain free rides to the exclusion of qualified financially stressed populations. But I think that anyone who laments the implementation of a new policy that helps promote more equality and furthers education for a significantly underserved portion of the country is an ass, even if they missed the change. among the countless lessons this prez has taught us, one is that the underserved need a stronger voice. My kiddo had an amazing record in HS and went to a top 10 school worldwide. He had no scholarships and I paid every dime out of pocket. 0 concerns....in some ways, this position of "fairness" borders on schadenfreude.

:edit: But I do understand how this could very well hurt an advocate of this position in the General E. :balls:

User avatar
mockbee
Posts: 2265
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 am

Re: Democratic Presidential Campaign 2020

#60 Post by mockbee » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:59 pm

I am also not saying that Warren's plan is fundamentally unworkable or unnecessary. Certainly something needs to be done to relieve debt and offer more opportunity. But it does need to be clear how it addresses the long term structural problems with higher education. In 10 years a 4-year state degree will cost over $200,000.

There are purely petty people out there, and I am not concerned about them, the dems don't need them to win. I am saying there are still many, many people who still believe, whether rightly or wrongly, we live in a meritocracy (surely we all do in some respect, or else why even bother with a degree, and surely we don't, what an enigma :neutral: ) and it needs to be clear something like debt forgiveness is path towards a fix, and not just a populist move. To call them purely petty as well is a mistake.

Post Reply