2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

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Hype
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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#61 Post by Hype » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:13 pm

Question :

As I, and everyone else of sound mind, are utterly shocked and disgusted over the death of George Floyd. Does this warrant a sudden UK (worldwide) retribution on every single person in history who has had anything to do with the 'promotion' of slavery, however small? Now I'm guessing statues are erected for something the person elect has done, which has been of benefit to the immediate or far reaching community. I guess my question is, why now? Why has it taken 10. 20, 100 years to do this? Should history not be preserved to be discussed and critiqued? In the UK we have had content (EXTREMELY popular content) taken down from YouTube in the last 24 hours because there may have one or two things that people find 'offensive'. My immediate thought was religion. 65% of the population in this country hold a belief in one of the three main monotheisms. ALL of those codone slavery. Do we now start to scrutinise religion? (which of course we should btw).
Because time and demographic changes make a difference. If you were raised with The Elephant's Child, you might not realize Rudyard Kipling is a giant honking pile of colonialist garbage. You might want to defend him. Because that is a warm fuzzy memory from your childhood. Likewise for, say, the statue you saw as a 10 year old with your dad, who now has dementia but still remembers that statue. To you, it won't matter that that statue may not have even been put up to honour something positive done for society. It may have been paid and lobbied for by some weird special-interest group intending to prop up a stilted idea of historical significance.

The question: why now, not before? Is only a good one if you're seriously asking what the roadblocks and hurdles were before that prevented opposition to glorification of the worst parts of our history from successfully stopping it. But often that question isn't meant like that -- it's meant more apathetically: if it didn't work 50 years ago, or 100 years ago, why bother? It's been there all this time and nothing was done, so why change now?

But that would just make you a person who doesn't care, doesn't like change even when it doesn't affect you or when it might help make your community less full of what appears to an impartial observer to be the glorification of atrocities.

We don't need monuments and statues to remember history. That's why we have historians, and articles, and books, and documentaries, and docudramas, and historical reacreationists, and preservation societies (not, that is, of statues, but of, say, historic buildings, not for glorification of some person, but because it's a site of historical/archeological significance).

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mockbee
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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#62 Post by mockbee » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:19 pm

We are all racist.

It's embedded in the system.
It comes from the system we now call capitalism, but has come under many forms in human history. All based on creating capital for a select few.

Slavery is, in its many forms, a critical component of that system. A result. Slavery is not because we hate black people inherently. It is because we were able to subjugate them and create capital.

Black people are sick and tired of it, understandably.

Progressive/left liberal hand wringing finger wagging holier than thou grandstanding is disgusting and won't lead anywhere useful. It shuts down what really need to be talked about. Nobody wants to discuss what really needs to be talked about. Economic inequality that has its foundation in capitalism. That would be really hard and also terrifying to Trump because could unite all working poor; white, black, latino, asian etc.

:noclue:






This woman totally gets it.... :nod:


This freaks ALL whites the fuck out.
The Right head for their guns.....
The Left head for the covers......

Trump also totally gets it.

Collectively, whites will NEVER give up their power(wealth). And it's a bunch of hypocritical bullshit that liberals think they are doing anything useful by focusing on race instead of economics.

Yeah we gotta start somewhere but I don't see how we get a foot past the starting line (taking down statues) when the race is a mile......maybe start with what is really wrong. Most white liberals think they are done with the mea culpa and the torn down statue....

:wavesad:

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mockbee
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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#63 Post by mockbee » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:35 pm

Bandit72 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:47 pm
In the UK over the past few days we have had a statue ripped down.




https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/09/hit-list ... -12827249/
Edward Colston

Between 1672 and 1689, Colston’s Royal African Company shipped about 100,000 enslaved people from West Africa to the Americas and the Caribbean, branding them on their chests with his corporation’s acronym, RAC. Disease and dehydration killed more than 20,000 people taken onto those ships by Colston’s company, and their bodies were thrown into the ocean. Yet Colston’s bronze statue, which was erected in 1895 in Bristol, was engraved with the inscription “ … one of the most virtuous and wise sons” of the city.
Taking Gone With the Wind off the air and baning shit is not helpful.

But good riddance to THAT guy being celebrated in Bristol.

A statue in a public square with the engraving “ … one of the most virtuous and wise sons” of Bristol is a problem.

Wiki the guy if someone wants to learn about him.
Or better yet. Put the above bio on the engraving instead. :idea:
:noclue:



We all have such a long long ways to go........ :wavesad:

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Bandit72
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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#64 Post by Bandit72 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:42 am

Hype wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:13 pm
We don't need monuments and statues to remember history. That's why we have historians, and articles, and books, and documentaries, and docudramas, and historical reacreationists, and preservation societies (not, that is, of statues, but of, say, historic buildings, not for glorification of some person, but because it's a site of historical/archeological significance).
I'm not 100% I agree with this. Wiping out 'visible' history could potentially have the opposite effect of not being ignorant. For example, do you think Auschwitz should be bulldozed and limited to books and documentaries? I've been there, and it was more powerful than reading or watching anything by some considerable margin. Does it glorify the nazi regime? Of course it doesn't.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#65 Post by mockbee » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:35 am

Bandit72 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:42 am
Hype wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:13 pm
We don't need monuments and statues to remember history. That's why we have historians, and articles, and books, and documentaries, and docudramas, and historical reacreationists, and preservation societies (not, that is, of statues, but of, say, historic buildings, not for glorification of some person, but because it's a site of historical/archeological significance).
I'm not 100% I agree with this. Wiping out 'visible' history could potentially have the opposite effect of not being ignorant. For example, do you think Auschwitz should be bulldozed and limited to books and documentaries? I've been there, and it was more powerful than reading or watching anything by some considerable margin. Does it glorify the nazi regime? Of course it doesn't.
I am curious. Is it common knowledge and understood in Britain who Colston (along with men like Cecil Rhodes, Henry Dundas and Robert Clive) were? That Rhodes was clearly a raging racist?
One of Rhodes's primary motivations in politics and business was his professed belief that the Anglo-Saxon race was, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",
Was this what generally people think when they passed by his statue?
I am not making judgement. I am seriously curious.
:noclue:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opin ... e=Homepage

What's the difference with having a Hitler. Or Goebbles statue and thinking well, they were bad, but that's ancient history.

Specifically about statues that are exclusively about the glorification of the person. They tried putting a plaque on the Colston statue that made reference to how he attained all that wealth, but repeatedly failed.


Maybe we do need to start with statues....I don't know.

I just don't see this ending well.
:noclue:
Last edited by mockbee on Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hype
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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#66 Post by Hype » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:52 am

Bandit72 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:42 am
Hype wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:13 pm
We don't need monuments and statues to remember history. That's why we have historians, and articles, and books, and documentaries, and docudramas, and historical reacreationists, and preservation societies (not, that is, of statues, but of, say, historic buildings, not for glorification of some person, but because it's a site of historical/archeological significance).
I'm not 100% I agree with this. Wiping out 'visible' history could potentially have the opposite effect of not being ignorant. For example, do you think Auschwitz should be bulldozed and limited to books and documentaries? I've been there, and it was more powerful than reading or watching anything by some considerable margin. Does it glorify the nazi regime? Of course it doesn't.
If Auschwitz was a statue and it was glorified by neo-Nazis as a shrine to genocide, then yes, it should be bulldozed. But that isn't what it is.

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Bandit72
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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#67 Post by Bandit72 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:17 am

mockbee wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:35 am
Bandit72 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:42 am
Hype wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:13 pm
We don't need monuments and statues to remember history. That's why we have historians, and articles, and books, and documentaries, and docudramas, and historical reacreationists, and preservation societies (not, that is, of statues, but of, say, historic buildings, not for glorification of some person, but because it's a site of historical/archeological significance).
I'm not 100% I agree with this. Wiping out 'visible' history could potentially have the opposite effect of not being ignorant. For example, do you think Auschwitz should be bulldozed and limited to books and documentaries? I've been there, and it was more powerful than reading or watching anything by some considerable margin. Does it glorify the nazi regime? Of course it doesn't.
I am curious. Is it common knowledge and understood in Britain who Colston (along with men like Cecil Rhodes, Henry Dundas and Robert Clive) were? That Rhodes was clearly a raging racist?
One of Rhodes's primary motivations in politics and business was his professed belief that the Anglo-Saxon race was, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",
Was this what generally people think when they passed by his statue?
I am not making judgement. I am seriously curious.
:noclue:


I'd never heard of him. I've probably only been to Bristol two or three times and going to look at statues isn't really my bag. Anyway, he's been fished out now and going in a museum .
which to be fair is what should have happened in the first place.

Churchill is being targeted as well. There's going to be a shit ton of demonstrations in London on Saturday between both 'sides'. What fun...

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#68 Post by mockbee » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:44 am

Bandit72 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:17 am


I'd never heard of him. I've probably only been to Bristol two or three times and going to look at statues isn't really my bag. Anyway, he's been fished out now and going in a museum .
which to be fair is what should have happened in the first place.


Nobody's bag is visiting white supremesist statues. (Except for the douch bag racists) Then why are they there?

BLM doing their job I guess....we're talking about it. You (and I :wink: ) learned what a douch bag Colson and Rhodes were. Statues going to a museum. :noclue:
Churchill is being targeted as well. There's going to be a shit ton of demonstrations in London on Saturday between both 'sides'. What fun...
Welcome to our party. Confronting institutionalized racism isn't a picnic. That's the point. Why would it be easy?....Our entire system is based on the back of it.
:noclue:

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Hype
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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#69 Post by Hype » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:12 pm

Churchill was a racist defender of colonialism, though.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ld-forget/
Churchill's detractors point to his well-documented bigotry, articulated often with shocking callousness and contempt. "I hate Indians," he once trumpeted. "They are a beastly people with a beastly religion."
He referred to Palestinians as "barbaric hordes who ate little but camel dung." When quashing insurgents in Sudan in the earlier days of his imperial career, Churchill boasted of killing three "savages." Contemplating restive populations in northwest Asia, he infamously lamented the "squeamishness" of his colleagues, who were not in "favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes."
Let's learn about Churchill's role in World War II in school, and also learn about his racist shitty beliefs and why they're shitty, and not just glorify the dude.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#70 Post by Larry B. » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:22 pm

There’s a deeply problematic issue here, in that masses can’t seem to approve admiration for anyone, because everone is shitty or has been. As someone who had to “save” England, Churchill had to oversee the killings of thousands. His racist views were the absolute norm at the time. Even I remember in my childhood reading comics where Africans were dark chocolate, with huge lips, and with a bone as a hairpin.

And interesting consequence of this is that popular leaders just can’t exist. Everyone’s a rapist, or a racist, or hit a person once, or supported a rapist or a racist, or is friends with a rapist’s friend... and so on.

Che Guevara disliked gays and shot a man in the face at least once. Pablo Neruda didn’t recognise one of her daughters, apparently. David Bowie apparently had sex with a 14 year old at some point when he was like 26.

Everyone pointing the finger at each other, when it should be strongly pointed at two “institutions”: capitalism and religion.

Here in Chile we also tore down a couple of statues of Spanish conquerors. But to be honest, that task should’ve been waaaay down the list of priorities. Let’s fucking scare the president and the 12 families that control the country, shall we?

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#71 Post by Hype » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:00 pm

Larry B. wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:22 pm
There’s a deeply problematic issue here, in that masses can’t seem to approve admiration for anyone, because everone is shitty or has been. As someone who had to “save” England, Churchill had to oversee the killings of thousands. His racist views were the absolute norm at the time. Even I remember in my childhood reading comics where Africans were dark chocolate, with huge lips, and with a bone as a hairpin.

And interesting consequence of this is that popular leaders just can’t exist. Everyone’s a rapist, or a racist, or hit a person once, or supported a rapist or a racist, or is friends with a rapist’s friend... and so on.

Che Guevara disliked gays and shot a man in the face at least once. Pablo Neruda didn’t recognise one of her daughters, apparently. David Bowie apparently had sex with a 14 year old at some point when he was like 26.

Everyone pointing the finger at each other, when it should be strongly pointed at two “institutions”: capitalism and religion.

Here in Chile we also tore down a couple of statues of Spanish conquerors. But to be honest, that task should’ve been waaaay down the list of priorities. Let’s fucking scare the president and the 12 families that control the country, shall we?
When the US "liberated" Iraq, the first thing they did was go for the statues of Saddam.
When the Soviet Union imploded, the first thing to go in many places were statues of Lenin and Stalin.

I see your point, but context matters. Tearing down statues can be very powerful (as propaganda, as shock, as fear-stoker, etc.). And in a few cases in this current crisis, it has already been.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#72 Post by chaos » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:49 pm

Too many things are being lumped together (which clearly can be seen in the title of the article below).

I have only pasted the part where Cleese is mentioned - the final third of the article.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... story.html

Winston Churchill statue is put in a protective box, as British culture wars sideline Nigel Farage and a John Cleese sitcom

By William Booth
June 12, 2020 at 2:58 p.m. EDT

. . .

On Friday, though, British entertainment news was focused on a decision by the BBC-owned streaming service UKTV to pull a rerun of a 45-year-old episode of the sitcom “Fawlty Towers.”

The episode is most famous for phrase “Don’t mention the war!” repeated by the goose-stepping former Monty Python actor John Cleese, as German tourists stay at his shambles of a hotel.

The German joke isn’t the controversial bit; it is another character on the show, an aging guest named Major Gowen, using racial slurs to describe cricket players.

Cleese told the Sydney Morning Herald he wasn’t happy to see the episode temporarily pulled “for review.” “If you put nonsense words into the mouth of someone you want to make fun of you’re not broadcasting their views, you’re making fun of them,” he said.

“If they can’t see that, if people are too stupid to see that, what can one say?” Cleese told the newspaper.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#73 Post by Bandit72 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:42 am

Chaos, this is the clip



The Major was always portrayed (and treated) as an idiotic relic, battle-damaged, maybe senile, always a man of ridicule and exasperated contempt. That was the point. But, and there is a massive BUT, this is painful to watch.

But I'll go back to a previous point. Why are the three major monotheisms being left out of all this? Slavery, homosexuals, human rights, the list goes on.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#74 Post by chaos » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:25 am

I am a fan of Fawlty Towers. The writers are satirizing racists through Major Gowan's ironic rebuke (as well as comically exposing casual English racism throughout the episode.) My point was that Cleese/his sitcom should not be lumped together with Churchill and Farage; on a micro-level Cleese criticizes what Churchill and Farage represent.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#75 Post by Hype » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:20 am

There is a massive difference between a portrayal of a racist for the purpose of ridiculing him, which happens to use out loud words which nowadays wouldn't be said, often even by people just as racist, and the portrayal of a racist for the purpose of glorifying him, which is what the fucking statues are.

Cleese called people who can't understand this "stupid", and he's right.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#76 Post by Larry B. » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:59 am

But I guess the question is, can a racist/homophobe/mysoginist be a hero?

There’s a difference between having a statue of Che Guevara for freeing the people of Cuba and fighting for social justice, than having it for how much he disliked gays. Personally, I’d say bring down the second fucking statue, but not the first.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#77 Post by mockbee » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:48 am

You are right. There is a distinction.

The statue that Bandit references, Colton, being torn down in Bristol is of a guy who is lauded as a hero on the engraving of the statue.

Here is what he did to a acquire his wealth:


Edward Colston
Between 1672 and 1689, Colston’s Royal African Company shipped about 100,000 enslaved people from West Africa to the Americas and the Caribbean, branding them on their chests with his corporation’s acronym, RAC. Disease and dehydration killed more than 20,000 people taken onto those ships by Colston’s company, and their bodies were thrown into the ocean. Yet Colston’s bronze statue, which was erected in 1895 in Bristol, was engraved with the inscription “ … one of the most virtuous and wise sons” of the city.
That is a problem that he has a statue to laude his value to society , no?
Now put the above bio below the statue on the engraving and keep it up. Fine. They tried to do that previously but were repeatedly denied.


Now some person that has very controversial views but significant laudable achievements, like Churchill, should not have their statue removed for that reason. Just we should try to educate ourselves better.

:noclue:

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#78 Post by Bandit72 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:09 am

So, the far right down in London today. Evolution at its finest.




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Hype
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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#79 Post by Hype » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:07 pm

Larry B. wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:59 am
But I guess the question is, can a racist/homophobe/mysoginist be a hero?

There’s a difference between having a statue of Che Guevara for freeing the people of Cuba and fighting for social justice, than having it for how much he disliked gays. Personally, I’d say bring down the second fucking statue, but not the first.
I think this is where it just depends on where society happens to stand at the time. If enough people decide it’s bad, then get rid of it. The people who still want to remember the good deeds of that person can do so privately.

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Re: 2020 US Racial/Political Protests and Riots

#80 Post by Pandemonium » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:13 pm

Bandit72 wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:09 am

At the 25 second and 45 second mark, the mob sounds like a pack of angry gorillas.

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