The OCCUPY Movement

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Hype
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#51 Post by Hype » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:31 pm

Here's an interesting article on the most recent Nobel Prizewinners in Economics:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le2202027/
Rational-expectations theory and its corollary, the efficient-market hypothesis, have been central to mainstream economics for more than 40 years. And while they may not have “wrecked the world,” some critics argue these models have blinded economists to reality: Certain the universe was unfolding as it should, they failed both to anticipate the financial crisis of 2008 and to chart an effective path to recovery.

The economic crisis has produced a crisis in the study of economics – a growing realization that if the field is going to offer meaningful solutions, greater attention must be paid to what is happening in university lecture halls and seminar rooms.

While the protesters occupying Wall Street are not carrying signs denouncing rational-expectations and efficient-market modelling, perhaps they should be.
:rockon:
Many critics of neo-classical economics argue that it has a powerful pro-market bias that's provided an intellectual justification for politicians ideologically disposed to reduce government involvement in the economy.

The rational-expectations model, for example, assumes that consumers and producers all inform themselves with all available data, understand how the world around them operates and will therefore respond to the same stimulus in essentially the same way. That allows economists to mathematically forecast how these “representative” consumers and producers would behave.

During a recession, say, a well-meaning government might want to enhance benefits for the unemployed. Prof. Sargent, for one, would caution against that, because a “rational” unemployed worker might then calculate that it's better to reject a lower-paying job. He's blamed much of the chronically high unemployment in some European countries on the presence of an army of voluntarily unemployed workers, and spoken out against the Obama administration's recent efforts to extend unemployment benefits.

Indeed, under the rational-expectations model, most market interventions by governments and central banks wind up looking counterproductive.

Meanwhile, the efficient-markets hypothesis, developed by University of Chicago economist Eugene Fama in the 1970s, has dominated thinking about financial markets. It posits that the prices of stocks and other financial assets are always “efficient” because they accurately reflect all the available information about economic fundamentals.

By this reasoning, there can be no speculative price bubbles or busts in the stock or housing markets, and speculators with evil intentions cannot successfully manipulate markets. Conveniently, since markets are self-stabilizing, there's no need for government regulation of them.

Critics point out that both these theories tend to ignore what John Maynard Keynes called the “animal spirits” – playing down human irrationality, inefficiency, venality and ignorance. Those are qualities that are hard to plug into a mathematical equation that purports to model human behaviour.

These models also have failed to take into account the profound changes wrought by globalization, and the growing importance of banks, hedge funds and other financial institutions. Yet they have successfully provided a “scientific” cover for an anti-regulatory political agenda that is popular on Wall Street and in some Washington political circles.
My objections to the efficient market model are slightly different than those above... they're based on rejecting the principle of efficiency as a virtue... but even if it could be argued that efficiency is sometimes a virtue (say, in situations where something needs to get done without getting caught in red tape. An example might be FEMA... though this is arguable... and it may turn out that efficiency is a red herring here), this article shows why it's problematic to assume efficiency without real-world data.

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ellis
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#52 Post by ellis » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:24 pm

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

:cheers:
This may just shock the living hell out of the right AND the left...

From FOXNews.com...
Critics of the growing Occupy Wall Street movement complain that the protesters don’t have a policy agenda and, therefore, don’t stand for anything. They're wrong. The key isn’t what protesters are for but rather what they’re against -- the gaping inequality that has poisoned our economy, our politics and our nation.

In America today, 400 people have more wealth than the bottom 150 million combined. That’s not because 150 million Americans are pathetically lazy or even unlucky. In fact, Americans have been working harder than ever -- productivity has risen in the last several decades. Big business profits and CEO bonuses have also gone up. Worker salaries, however, have declined.

Most of the Occupy Wall Street protesters aren’t opposed to free market capitalism. In fact, what they want is an end to the crony capitalist system now in place, that makes it easier for the rich and powerful to get even more rich and powerful while making it increasingly hard for the rest of us to get by. The protesters are not anti-American radicals. They are the defenders of the American Dream, the decision from the birth of our nation that success should be determined by hard work not royal bloodlines.

Sure, bank executives may work a lot harder than you and me or a mother of three doing checkout at a grocery store. Maybe the bankers work ten times harder. Maybe even a hundred times harder. But they’re compensated a thousand times more.
The question is not how Occupy Wall Street protesters can find that gross discrepancy immoral. The question is why every one of us isn’t protesting with them.

According to polls, most Americans support the 99% movement, even if they’re not taking to the streets. In fact, support for the Occupy Wall Street protests is not only higher than for either political party in Washington but greater than support for the Tea Party. And unlike the Tea Party which was fueled by national conservative donors and institutions, the Occupy Wall Street Movement is spreading organically from Idaho to Indiana. Institutions on the left, including unions, have been relatively late to the game.

Ironically, the original Boston Tea Party activists would likely support Occupy Wall Street more as well. Note that the original Tea Party didn’t protest taxes, merely the idea of taxation without representation -- and they were actually protesting the crown-backed monopoly of the East India Company, the main big business of the day.

Americans today also support taxes. In fact, two-thirds of voters -- including a majority of Republicans -- support increasing taxes on the rich, something the Occupy Wall Street protests implicitly support. That’s not just anarchist lefty kids. Soccer moms and construction workers and, yes, even some bankers want to see our economy work for the 99%, not just the 1%, and are flocking to Occupy protests in droves.
I’ve even met a number of Libertarians and Tea Party conservatives at these protests. So the critics are right, the Occupy Wall Street movement isn’t the Tea Party. Occupy Wall Street is much, much broader.

Maybe it’s hard to see your best interests reflected in a sometimes rag-tag, inarticulate, imperfect group of protesters. But make no mistake about it: While horrendous inequality is not an American tradition, protest is.And if you’re part of the 99% of underpaid or unemployed Americans crushed in the current economy, the Occupy Wall Street protests are your best chance at fixing the broken economy that is breaking your back.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/10/ ... ll-street/

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#53 Post by guysmiley » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:49 am

wow.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#54 Post by Hokahey » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:24 am

Adurentibus Spina wrote:It's ironic that you accuse me of a jump in logic where there isn't one (me... of all people... really?... Maybe sometimes I skip steps in the explanation... but never in the logic)... but then you say this:
Nice. Your rebuttal is that you of all people would never do such a thing and then attempt to claim I've done the same rather than actually responding to my claim.

That's an empirical claim. Meaning, you can say that, but you have no proof.
If we view states in the model of businesses competing with one another the proof is in how markets work. Period.

You can pose it as a hypothetical claim and then try to find evidence to support it, or just say: what would be the harm in trying it to see if what I said is right? The former is funny. I would be very surprised if there were evidence that states would do that (cf. Massechussetts). The latter is the problem -- the opposition sees all kinds of harm in trying out these zany states-rights schemes. In fact, I already gave several reasons to think going totally states-rights would be dangerous...[/quote]

You seem to not understand that states already have the ability to pass their own laws, regulations, etc and states that do it best have the most success.

Which US state is considered the most successful for businesses? Virginia. They attract corporations en masse because of their low tax rates, low regulation, and anti-union policies.

Additionally, the US Constitution calls for states rights. Zany! :lol:


the fact that there might be some states who adopt policies of more successful states doesn't sufficiently justify your view, since the federal government can do the same thing (by implementing policies they think will be successful, and then changing or getting rid of them if they aren't, or by allowing states to make changes based on regional differences while still preserving the universal nature of the benefits of the policies), arguably better.
That's the crux of the argument isn't it? I don't see how anyone could believe that a larger, more beaurocratic entity to manage anything better and as a whole than the individual peices could on their own, each allowed to implement it's own methods to see what works best.

In fact, how could the federal government possibly know that what works well in what state works well in another? In many cases it won't. This is why there are local laws, state laws and federal laws. What works well in my town in rural Missouri probably won't work in New York City. Make sense?

There are a few problems with this... First, you seem to think efficiency is higher in the order of importance than anything else. There are good reasons to reject this. (Whether you like him or not, there's a great book by John Ralston Saul, husband of Canada's former Governor General, called "Voltaire's Bastards", which argues at length that 'rational' and 'efficient' have become confused in the post-Enlightenment world, and that this has dire consequences for policy...) It doesn't follow from something's being efficient that it's good, and it doesn't follow from something's being inefficient that it should be rejected. If that were the case, then any industrialized country with a military dictatorship would be 'good' because they are efficient (think of the examples yourself... there are lots); it also doesn't follow that inefficient programs are worse than the alternative -- there are some goods that are by their nature inefficient. A guy I worked with from Jordan said he disliked Canada's government because he found it corrupt and inefficient, whereas King Abdullah of Jordan is very efficient, and according to this guy, not corrupt. I had to say "But wait... why do you think that being efficient or not corrupt is a good thing? Can you criticize the King in public if you own a newspaper? No? ... You see my point. There may be corruption and inefficiencies built into the bedrock of democratic systems, but it's a necessary evil, and Winston Churchill is right..." (hopefully that helps make my point... I can clarify it if I need to...)
We can debate the importance of efficiency all day long, but find me a successful inefficient business, or one that will be long term.
Oh right... the "doesn't make sense if you care about justice" claim is about the narrowness of the libertarian picture... they confuse negative liberty with freedom, and they confuse justice with pure procedural justice. If you care about justice you should care about consequences, and about both pure procedural and institutional justice. That is, you shouldn't just attempt to circularly define "justice" as "the system that preserves the greatest amount of freedom", and then say "libertarians define freedom as x, and the libertarian system is just because it does that." That's transparently circular reasoning (but is what most libertarians and utilitarians end up arguing...). The point is, you have to take consequences into account, and that's always going to be messy.
How does caring about liberty and freedom (both supposed revered concepts world wide) mean I don't care about consequence? Are you confusing anarchy with liberty? Because there is a difference.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#55 Post by Hokahey » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:39 am

I don't fault the occupy crowd for being angry, I fault them for being uninformed morons.

I see signs like "Where's my bailout?"

It's on my paycheck a-hole. That's where the government would be taking the money from. You think it's okay to take my money and give it to you instead of corporations? Bot hare wrong.

I've also seen people on Facebook that are "Occupiers" calling for everyone to shun big business and shop at small retailers.

What happens when we all shop at Local-Mart instead of Wal-Mart? Local-Mart makes enough money to open franchises and becomes Wal-Mart. :lol:

Ignorance of economics and an expectation that they're owed something is their downfall. There is nothing you're owed, because in order to deliver something to you it must come from someone else. If it's involuntary, you're stealing from me.

I'm one of the 99% in America and I probably live more comfortably than 75% of the world's population. :lol:

Oh I'm so ANGRY! I want an even bigger flatscreen!

I've never been given a thing, and no one in my family has. My parents were not of high means. My father was a career military man and my mother worked in hospitals. They gave us nothing but a sense of pride.

I've managed as many as 200 people at one point in my life. Most of them were entry level and lowly educated.

I always in need of more managers and employees in high paid positions. I would meet with every new hire and explain to them what opportunities there were for them and how I would work with them to get them to where they needed to be. They just needed to get their work done, follow the company rules and keep their nose clean. "Okay Dave, sure thing!"

5 minutes later I walk by their desk and their on the internet, eating fries and ignoring their work.

Best part is, I've maintained friendships with some of these people (even after I was laid off) and every last one of them are promoting the "Occupy" thing on Facebook. Why didn't they do what they needed to in order to make more money? They were already receiving government benefits. Most of them would quit after a few months and file for unemployment, food stamps etc. Taking from my pocketbook instead of the companies that they protest against.

Remove that safety net, that moral hazard, and let's see how many more of them would have been a bit more motivated.

By the way, the people that actually came to work and did their jobs? All promoted, and all of them against hand outs.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#56 Post by Romeo » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:04 am

see you are not getting it.
This isn't about owning flatscreens or ipads. Only those interested in the material things think it's about material things.
It's about how the fuck am I going to afford home heating oil this winter after my money market account I have been saving in for years. took such a hit I lost 25G's. I'm tapped. Badly.
And let's not forget Grandpa who was a year or two from retirement. Saved in a 401K only to see it wiped out. Not he has to work til he's dead.

Where's my bailout means where's my job. Banks took the money, made large amounts of earnings, gave each other nice bonuses but gave nothing back to the consumer or small businesses. They are however raising fees and decreasing services. They are certainly not suddenly having a hiring boom.


You want less government intervention...well you got it baby, it was called deregulation. And this mess that Wall Street and the Banking Industry created was aaaaaaaaaaaaall from being deregulated.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#57 Post by guysmiley » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:59 am

You wouldn't believe the shit that comes up it you type "triangle hat fucker" in google images. anyways, you all are fighting the same god damn fight under A different moniker. Give it a rest and help this country and its people. Educate each other. Or else all is lose and you end up like me.... fleeing......we'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#58 Post by Hokahey » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:24 pm

Romeo wrote:see you are not getting it.
This isn't about owning flatscreens or ipads. Only those interested in the material things think it's about material things.
Really? Have you seen the picture floating around mocking the people down there all decked out in designer brands and talking on their smart phones? It's about getting your priorities straight. Understanding you're not guaranteed the finer things in life that many of us take for granted as every day items.
It's about how the fuck am I going to afford home heating oil this winter after my money market account I have been saving in for years. took such a hit I lost 25G's. I'm tapped. Badly.
Is this you personally? A money market account should have a base investment that you're counting on and you're making money off the interest. I don't know why you'd be counting on interest to pay your home heating oil. That's just bad money management.
And let's not forget Grandpa who was a year or two from retirement. Saved in a 401K only to see it wiped out. Not he has to work til he's dead.
And he has every right to be angry at the government that got itself involved in bank lending, offered a sub prime loan product to unqualified clients, created a bubble as all of these people bought homes, which subsequently burst when all of these non credit worthy individuals defaulted.
Where's my bailout means where's my job.
There's always somewhere hiring. If someone says they can't find a job, 99% of the time it means they can't find a job that subsidizes their current lifestyle. I've lived off of minimal means. It's tough. But there's always a job out there for those capable of work. There's Labor Ready that will pay $50 a day. I don't want to hear it.
Banks took the money, made large amounts of earnings, gave each other nice bonuses but gave nothing back to the consumer or small businesses. They are however raising fees and decreasing services. They are certainly not suddenly having a hiring boom.
And they have that right as privately owned businesses. The problem isn't that banks took the money, it's that the government GAVE IT TO THEM. Why are we angry at the banks for taking money to stay afloat? Why wouldn't they? They shoudn't have been given the money.
You want less government intervention...well you got it baby, it was called deregulation. And this mess that Wall Street and the Banking Industry created was aaaaaaaaaaaaall from being deregulated.
No it wasn't. Sub prime loans sank the housing industry which sank the banks which sank the economy.

Sub prime loans existed because the government wanted everyone to own their home. No one get's left out. Everyone gets an A on their report card no matter how poorly they've done on their tests or homework. They don't need to prove their capable or worthy of being leant hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You see, I've been on the frontlines of this. I lend the money on new loans and refinances. I have also modified the bad loans, trying to help people stay in their homes. Do you know how maddening that process is? When you have to account for that individual's debt to income ratio in order to qualify them for Obama's handout (HAMP), and they tell you about their $500 a month car loan, satellite TV, internet, gym membership, Netflix etc etc etc.

And you tell them they can't have their loan modified because they make too much money and they lose their mind, screaming "How is that possible? I can't afford my loan payments!"

You explain that that's because of all of their spending on bullcrap and they can't wrap their heads around it. "Well I have to have a car!" Not that one. Downgrade. "Well I have to go to the gym!" :lol:

I've spoke to thousands of these people in 2008.

Sure there are people legitimtely screwed over by the circumstances that I was happy received help (at the expense of all of our paychecks), but they were few and far between. And they were generally smart enough to take the needed steps to adjust their lifestyle.

I can only imagine how many of those idiots I talked to are down on Wallstreet screaming about the evil bank that took their home, with an iphone in their pocket....

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#59 Post by Juana » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:17 pm

But I have no problem with people protesting but the problem is the hand outs expected by a lot of those protestors that bothers me and a lot of them do expect to be handed everything without any hard work what so ever. I saw it when they did the occupy Austin stuff.

The problem is everyone seems to want a champagne lifestyle on kool aid money and don't want to work to get the money for what they want. I have a FT day job, a bar that I co own and trying to open up other stuff because I want to have nice things but I know the only way to do that is to work my ass off to get the money together to get those things.

Do I think that CEOs get paid too much? Yeah, but you know what life isn't fair. There will always be haves and have nots.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#60 Post by Hokahey » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:24 am

Exactly. If you don't like it start your own company with your own great idea (if you can get through the regulatory red tape that hinders so many entrepenuers) or get the degrees necessary to obtain a CEO level position and start busting your ass in a corporate job somewhere. I work very, very hard and do okay for myself, but if I wanted to be "rich" I could certainly work more, go back to school, kiss a little more ass at work, etc.

There's scant little excuse for anyone in this country to be hungry, homeless etc. If you are, there's plenty of charity to go around. Swallow your pride and deal with it.

The only sympathy I have is for people with impairments that prevent them from working. Problem is, I know several people on permanent and short term disability that would have no problem working if they had to. Those programs need to be brought down to the lowest level of government to manage and should be very limited.

On a related note, I also don't understand people sitting around on unemployment when there are jobs available. I have a good friend that was on unemployment, found a job, went to the unemployment office to tell them and they said he shouldn't bother because he'd be doing better on unemployment! I kid you not.

There ARE jobs. Just not jobs people want and don't HAVE to take because they can sit on unemployment and bitch about the lack of jobs. That "moral hazard" prevents people from taking up the remaining jobs, which would create a premium on available workers, which would benefit the rest of us because employers would need to do more to intice people in to their positions. Basic economics.

I bet everyone reading this knows someone that's been on unemployment, and knows that every single one of those people could have taken a job somewhere if they really wanted to.

I've lived in a 1 bedroom apartment making close to minimum wage, eating Ramen for dinner. I used to spend my evenings drawing and being creative because I didnt have cable. I was very happy. But I wanted more. So I busted my ass as hard as I could and moved up the food chain. No one helped me. No one gave me anything. I didn't even know programs existed that I'm sure I would have qualified for. I assumed anything like was for people that really needed it, not realize how many people on those programs were better off than I was. Who knows if I would have worked as hard as I did to get the things I wanted if those things would have been available because I no longer had to spend money on groceries, had my housing subsidized etc.

I can really relate to liberals. I really can. Much more so than Neocons. But for a group that has such a distaste for government and the havoc they wreak with their intrusive programs, wars, restricting civil liberties...they're sure willing to suck on the teet of that same monsterous institution.

Large, over reaching, over extended Government is bad. Period. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Welcome to reality.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#61 Post by Artemis » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:49 am

hokahey wrote: bet everyone reading this knows someone that's been on unemployment, and knows that every single one of those people could have taken a job somewhere if they really wanted to.
A friend of mine was laid off from her job as a project manager and went on uneployment for about a year until she found a job that was close to or better than what she had. I'm sure she could have taken a McDonald's job but that wouldn't have been very good for her career. She used the unemployment, for which she has paid into, as a temporary measure until she got back on her feet. I don't know about in the US, but in Canada unemployment benefits aren't that much.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#62 Post by Juana » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:36 am

Not sure about the US unemployment as I have always worked even if it was a shitty job, but I can see people doing what you put up there and that is fine but its the people that will just bleed it out and not look for jobs at all until their benefits are going to run out. I would assume that your friend was out there trying to get a job similar to what he/she was working that whole time and not just sitting around playing video games and getting high.

Which is why some of the people do in the US on unemployment, I know because I see people on unemployment that seem to have plenty of money to waste in the bar.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#63 Post by Hokahey » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:55 am

Juana wrote:Not sure about the US unemployment as I have always worked even if it was a shitty job, but I can see people doing what you put up there and that is fine but its the people that will just bleed it out and not look for jobs at all until their benefits are going to run out. I would assume that your friend was out there trying to get a job similar to what he/she was working that whole time and not just sitting around playing video games and getting high.

Which is why some of the people do in the US on unemployment, I know because I see people on unemployment that seem to have plenty of money to waste in the bar.
This. I don't begrudge people taking advantage of available benefits. I begrudge people that abuse them and/or then turn around and complain about how bad they have it. That makes my blood boil.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#64 Post by Larry B. » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:44 am

I think it all comes down to education and culture regarding your commitment towards your country. Whereas in Canada, France, maybe Germany and other countries known by the US as "socialist hellholes" there seems to be some sort of personal commitment towards the well-being of the community, the US seems to be educated to compete, compete and compete, because not everybody is going to "make it".

:noclue:

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#65 Post by Hokahey » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:24 pm

Larry B. wrote:I think it all comes down to education and culture regarding your commitment towards your country. Whereas in Canada, France, maybe Germany and other countries known by the US as "socialist hellholes" there seems to be some sort of personal commitment towards the well-being of the community, the US seems to be educated to compete, compete and compete, because not everybody is going to "make it".

:noclue:
I understand why you would think that, but respectfully you're missing the overall point. Commitment to the well-being of the community is important to people that are anti-big government, they just don't believe the federal government should be responsible for that assistance, and that people should have a choice in where their money goes.

People shouldn't be forced in to giving money to other people. That creates resentment. I believe in the goodness of people. I believe that private charities and programs managed at the local level would do a better job making sure the overall community was in good shape than the federal government doing the same.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#66 Post by Juana » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:38 pm

Don't get me wrong I believe in helping out the local community and all that but what I don't like is seeing people on assistance and then buying food with their food stamps and then getting $200 worth of beer and booze and other shit with cash. Not because I don't believe in those systems but because if you have money to waste on those items then those food stamps should go to someone that really can not afford things. Basically the programs shouldn't be used to help someone live like a king without having to work.

As for the education comment you get what you put into it. A lot of public schools are underfunded and there are drastic drop offs in the education levels because of that. But its up to the individual to make that choice to want to get that scholarship or whatever. There are a lot of things out there for people to further their educations people just have to work for it. So in that I agree its about competition. But because like Hoka said in the US these days everyone gets a trophy and it kills work ethic.

As I said before life is not fair. Some people get things handed to them. Some people work their asses off. Some people get shit all all the time. Anyone think I wanted to have to deal with these surgeries and all that treatment and radiation? Fuck no, sucks but it was the hand I was dealt in this life. I can either nut up and face everything head on and give it my all or I can whine about everything and quit. I chose to face it all head on because in the end hard work and determination usually pay off.

I recommend some people read "Winners Never Cheat, Even in the Most Difficult times" it would actually help both the 99% and the 1% to get their heads out of their asses and get back to hard work.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#67 Post by Hokahey » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:47 pm

Juana wrote:As for the education comment you get what you put into it. A lot of public schools are underfunded and there are drastic drop offs in the education levels because of that.

Dig this though, D.C. schools and teachers recieve more money than any other district, and guess which district has some of the lowest test scores? People want to just throw money at the education problem which isn't the answer. The problem is we have a federal government dictating curriculum and methods in most schools. There's very little opportunity to try something new unless it's a private school. Guess which types of schools do best? Private. Know why? Bad private schools shut down. Good private schools attract more business. The market in action again. The strongest business model wins.

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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#68 Post by Hype » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:08 pm

hokahey wrote:
Juana wrote:As for the education comment you get what you put into it. A lot of public schools are underfunded and there are drastic drop offs in the education levels because of that.

Dig this though, D.C. schools and teachers recieve more money than any other district, and guess which district has some of the lowest test scores? People want to just throw money at the education problem which isn't the answer. The problem is we have a federal government dictating curriculum and methods in most schools. There's very little opportunity to try something new unless it's a private school. Guess which types of schools do best? Private. Know why? Bad private schools shut down. Good private schools attract more business. The market in action again. The strongest business model wins.
Private schools don't do best because of the market, they do generally do better because the student-to-teacher ratio is lower. Arguably (on utilitarian grounds), the private system damages the public system, creating a false sense of merit, since it isn't, in fact, the case that bad schools closing down makes the other schools better, magically. It's analogous to the issue of public versus private insurance. Arguably a single-payer system is better (just as a fully public education system would be better) since it doesn't split the economic bottom line. The existence of private providers of any service undermines the ability of the public system to deliver optimal service. Some goods ought to be public. The fact that there are problems in the public system in both cases doesn't provide support for the private system, since there are problems in the private system. But the fact that there are problems in the public system can be in part blamed on the existence of a private option (solely by the nature of how public systems work).

Your dig at the federal curriculum is a non-sequitur... it's got nothing to do with anything else you said.

By the way, another major problem with the American public education system (that doesn't justify privatization, but rather, just needs to be fixed) is the reliance on the Texas Board of Education in making decisions about country-wide textbooks. That's not a problem of federal government overstepping, that's a problem of disparity in the size of states foisting stupid decisions on the rest of the country. Even if the federal government were entirely eliminated, it would probably still be cheaper to buy the same textbooks Texas buys, rather than a different one only New Hampshire wants. That's a really idiotic consequence of the market dictating education policy.
Last edited by Hype on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Larry B.
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#69 Post by Larry B. » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:10 pm

hokahey wrote:
Larry B. wrote:I think it all comes down to education and culture regarding your commitment towards your country. Whereas in Canada, France, maybe Germany and other countries known by the US as "socialist hellholes" there seems to be some sort of personal commitment towards the well-being of the community, the US seems to be educated to compete, compete and compete, because not everybody is going to "make it".

:noclue:
I understand why you would think that, but respectfully you're missing the overall point. Commitment to the well-being of the community is important to people that are anti-big government, they just don't believe the federal government should be responsible for that assistance, and that people should have a choice in where their money goes.

People shouldn't be forced in to giving money to other people. That creates resentment. I believe in the goodness of people. I believe that private charities and programs managed at the local level would do a better job making sure the overall community was in good shape than the federal government doing the same.
That's my point, exactly. Some people believe the federal government should be responsible for that assistance and some people don't.

Those same educational and cultural differences are why having higher taxes seems like "being forced into giving money to other people".

BTW, I'm just pointing out some obvious things... mainly, that had your education been different or had you been born in a different country, you'd think completely otherwise.

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Romeo
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#70 Post by Romeo » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:23 pm

do you know how much I pay in scool taxes a year? JUST School taxes-almost $5000 a year. That's excluding my general land tax.

Do you know how many kids I have in school? 0

You tell me where else in the country do they have to pay almost 1/4 of their yearly salary for PUBLIC SCHOOL TAX without a child in the district.

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Hype
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#71 Post by Hype » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:31 pm

Romeo wrote:do you know how much I pay in scool taxes a year? JUST School taxes-almost $5000 a year. That's excluding my general land tax.

Do you know how many kids I have in school? 0

You tell me where else in the country do they have to pay almost 1/4 of their yearly salary for PUBLIC SCHOOL TAX without a child in the district.
It's got nothing to do with whether you have children. Taxes are about public goods, not personal goods. You may have never had a fire in your house, or even known anyone who has (I sure haven't), but by your logic, you shouldn't have to pay for fire services because you've never had to use them, and probably never will. But that's not why you pay for emergency services. You pay for emergency services because you live in a society in which the burdens of life are mitigated as much as possible through (arguably) a social contract that transfers your Natural Right (or, your individual power to control your own life) to the state in return for a more stable, balanced system.

If you want 100% natural right, then if I'm bigger than you, I can just kill you and take your stuff.

That said, there are unjust taxation arrangements... Arguably that's what the Boston Tea Party was about; not a bald hatred of taxation, but the lack of justice in a system where colonies were taxed without representation. Since you live in America, you have representation. You can vote for a candidate who will lower taxes, or you can write a letter to the congressman or whatever and say "I think this is unfair. Here's why." or get a petition signed...

But to complain about the fact that your taxes pay for something you don't use is ludicrous, even if the amount is, indeed, too high. I'm trying to figure out (by researching it, I assume you live in NYC? or NJ?) how exactly you've been paying a 25% "school tax"... Hard to find exact data, but it does look like property taxes at the local level in NYC are some of the highest in the country, and they pay for public schools... So if you've got a low-paying job and a really expensive house, you may have a problem... I do find it kind of amusing, though, that Hoka's Libertarianism is totally fine with such exorbitant taxation at the local level...

Pure Method
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#72 Post by Pure Method » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:44 pm

Private schools: "let's make it so the kids who can't afford to come here, don't. if they work hard at mcdonald's and become a manager, maybe their grandkids will be able to. that'll help with inequality!"

do some research on FInland's education system, seems to me it's the perfect marriage of your two arguments (inclusion and localism)

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Essence_Smith
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#73 Post by Essence_Smith » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:53 pm

Can I just chime in here? I GOTTA say nothing annoys the shit outta me more than you guys who talk about MY TAX DOLLARS BLAH BLAH BLAH...first off, I don't know where the fuck my tax dollar actually goes...they say it goes to social security, etc etc, but who fuckin knows...secondly, if we had NONE of those programs in place we would still pay taxes of some kind and people would still complain about their fuckin tax dollars and feeling some kinda way about where the money was going...this whole debate and the way the system of people being taxed, etc works has always felt like a scam to me and the resulting debates like this one seem pointless as we're all getting screwed with different opinions about why and how we're getting screwed with no one being able to actually do shit but continue to get screwed and complain about it...sorry needed to vent, rant done...
:essence:

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Hype
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#74 Post by Hype » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:18 pm

Essence_Smith wrote:Can I just chime in here? I GOTTA say nothing annoys the shit outta me more than you guys who talk about MY TAX DOLLARS BLAH BLAH BLAH...first off, I don't know where the fuck my tax dollar actually goes...they say it goes to social security, etc etc, but who fuckin knows...secondly, if we had NONE of those programs in place we would still pay taxes of some kind and people would still complain about their fuckin tax dollars and feeling some kinda way about where the money was going...this whole debate and the way the system of people being taxed, etc works has always felt like a scam to me and the resulting debates like this one seem pointless as we're all getting screwed with different opinions about why and how we're getting screwed with no one being able to actually do shit but continue to get screwed and complain about it...sorry needed to vent, rant done...
:essence:

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Juana
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Re: The OCCUPY Movement

#75 Post by Juana » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:33 pm

Essence_Smith wrote:Can I just chime in here? I GOTTA say nothing annoys the shit outta me more than you guys who talk about MY TAX DOLLARS BLAH BLAH BLAH...first off, I don't know where the fuck my tax dollar actually goes...they say it goes to social security, etc etc, but who fuckin knows...secondly, if we had NONE of those programs in place we would still pay taxes of some kind and people would still complain about their fuckin tax dollars and feeling some kinda way about where the money was going...this whole debate and the way the system of people being taxed, etc works has always felt like a scam to me and the resulting debates like this one seem pointless as we're all getting screwed with different opinions about why and how we're getting screwed with no one being able to actually do shit but continue to get screwed and complain about it...sorry needed to vent, rant done...
:essence:
I agree with this. But my thing was it seems like SOME of those people in this movement just want to complain. Saw one in Austin said "I took off of work to do this and I probably will not get anything for it" fuckin really?

As for taxes, no worries about that the money goes where ever and pays for a lot of things. Some I agree with, some I don't.

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