The dark side of Dubai

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Hokahey
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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#26 Post by Hokahey » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:51 pm

Pure Method wrote:I think in this case it would be more helpful to think of neo-liberalism as the opposite of protectionist policies. In that sense, Dubai, which has lured scores and scores of large, high-profile international/multinational corporations, can be said to be oriented towards the 'neo-liberal world economy'.
According to that article, Dubai's biggest businesses are owned or propped up by the government. That's the opposite of "neo-liberalism" by any definition. If anything, that article, and Dubai in general, should serve as a perfect example of why it's dangerous to involve government with business beyond the usual arguments of creating boom/bust cycles and inhibiting entrepreneurs from getting their small businesses off the ground because of ridiculous amounts of red tape. On a related side note, I was just reading an article in the local paper about a small business owner that cannot put a sign on his store because it has to be the same signage as on every other local store (material, lettering etc.) and it's near impossible to have that created because the business that made the signs no longer exists! So now his business is failing because no one knows it's there. Gooooo government.
I have a semi-related question for you Hoka, and I am curious for your response and eager for you to drop some knowledge. I often hear the claim (actually, you yourself may have said this, but I'm not sure) that governments are not supposed to pick winners/losers in the economy. I would argue that governments are best served by catering to and preparing their populace for the country's competitive advantage. Rather than say: "all industries should be given a chance" shouldn't we say "this industry is the most profitable/sustainable for our future, and we will pursue it aggressively"?

Flame away.

Why would the government need to do that? The most profitable/sustainable industries don't need the government, they're already succeeding on their own. The problem comes in when the government begins propping up businesses that are failing or have failed, thus promoting the idea that it's not necessary to do it right, just put yourself in the position to make the government believe you're too important to go away, or make enough friends with politicians with too much power and never worry about failing.

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#27 Post by Hype » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:43 pm

The most profitable/sustainable industries don't need the government, they're already succeeding on their own
Empirical claim. Where's the data?

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#28 Post by Hokahey » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:13 am

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
The most profitable/sustainable industries don't need the government, they're already succeeding on their own
Empirical claim. Where's the data?
... :confused: '

The data is the profit....and sustainability.

Why are they already sustainable? The initial post that I'm replying to implies already that the numbers exist to prove the government isn't needed. Why would it be needed to sustain something already sustainable? Unless you're attempting to argue the definition of sustainable, in which case...

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Hype
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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#29 Post by Hype » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:54 am

hokahey wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
The most profitable/sustainable industries don't need the government, they're already succeeding on their own
Empirical claim. Where's the data?
... :confused: '

The data is the profit....and sustainability.

Why are they already sustainable? The initial post that I'm replying to implies already that the numbers exist to prove the government isn't needed. Why would it be needed to sustain something already sustainable? Unless you're attempting to argue the definition of sustainable, in which case...
Well, if you're building "don't need the government" into your definition of 'profitable/sustainable', then your argument is viciously circular (and therefore fallacious). It wouldn't follow from such an argument that we would have to accept your claim, since there may not be any such businesses. I asked for data because I figured the argument is stronger if not interpreted that way. If what you mean was: there are industries in which there are businesses/corporations that are profitable and sustainable in such a way that they have no need for the government, because they're already succeeding without any help, then this is a claim that requires empirical proof, i.e., data to show that there are businesses literally succeeding "on their own", in some sense of that phrase. It seems highly unlikely to me that there are any such businesses. Corporations succeed in part because incorporating allows them to take advantage of government help they wouldn't have otherwise. That's the whole point of being a corporation. :confused:

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#30 Post by Hokahey » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:51 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote: Well, if you're building "don't need the government" into your definition of 'profitable/sustainable', then your argument is viciously circular (and therefore fallacious). It wouldn't follow from such an argument that we would have to accept your claim, since there may not be any such businesses. I asked for data because I figured the argument is stronger if not interpreted that way. If what you mean was: there are industries in which there are businesses/corporations that are profitable and sustainable in such a way that they have no need for the government, because they're already succeeding without any help, then this is a claim that requires empirical proof, i.e., data to show that there are businesses literally succeeding "on their own", in some sense of that phrase. It seems highly unlikely to me that there are any such businesses. Corporations succeed in part because incorporating allows them to take advantage of government help they wouldn't have otherwise. That's the whole point of being a corporation. :confused:

This is silly. The discussion was about governments picking and choosing a corporation to "prop up", not how all corporations are are taking advantage of government help. That's still a common starting point. If one is then "more successful," what assistance do they need? That's what makes no sense.

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#31 Post by Hype » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:10 pm

hokahey wrote:If one is then "more successful," what assistance do they need?
It depends. 'more successful' than what? Regional, national, or international competitors? Or all of them? If it's all of those (say, Wal-Mart), then you might have a point. Otherwise, it just depends on what value the industry plays for national interests. Some industries (e.g., Canada's soft-wood lumber, or the oil-sands), might be unable to remain within a country (that is, in the control of local companies) without the government implementing protectionist policies, and it sometimes might be in the national interest to do so (e.g., Petro-Canada's original formulation under the Trudeau government).

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#32 Post by Hokahey » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:16 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
hokahey wrote:If one is then "more successful," what assistance do they need?
It depends. 'more successful' than what? Regional, national, or international competitors? Or all of them? If it's all of those (say, Wal-Mart), then you might have a point. Otherwise, it just depends on what value the industry plays for national interests. Some industries (e.g., Canada's soft-wood lumber, or the oil-sands), might be unable to remain within a country (that is, in the control of local companies) without the government implementing protectionist policies, and it sometimes might be in the national interest to do so (e.g., Petro-Canada's original formulation under the Trudeau government).

He also said "sustainable."

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#33 Post by Hype » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:33 pm

hokahey wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
hokahey wrote:If one is then "more successful," what assistance do they need?
It depends. 'more successful' than what? Regional, national, or international competitors? Or all of them? If it's all of those (say, Wal-Mart), then you might have a point. Otherwise, it just depends on what value the industry plays for national interests. Some industries (e.g., Canada's soft-wood lumber, or the oil-sands), might be unable to remain within a country (that is, in the control of local companies) without the government implementing protectionist policies, and it sometimes might be in the national interest to do so (e.g., Petro-Canada's original formulation under the Trudeau government).

He also said "sustainable."
That doesn't really change what I said. 'Sustainable' the way Pure Method meant it probably meant something like: 'has a view which is both proven historically and takes into account the long-term'. That still has nothing to do with whether more short-term-minded multi-nationals will fuck things up by buying out regional competitors who would have otherwise been successful, and would have promoted or preserved the interets of a nation.

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#34 Post by Hokahey » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:01 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:That still has nothing to do with whether more short-term-minded multi-nationals will fuck things up by buying out regional competitors who would have otherwise been successful, and would have promoted or preserved the interets of a nation.
Empirical claim. Where's the data?

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#35 Post by Hype » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:50 pm

hokahey wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:That still has nothing to do with whether more short-term-minded multi-nationals will fuck things up by buying out regional competitors who would have otherwise been successful, and would have promoted or preserved the interets of a nation.
Empirical claim. Where's the data?
The sentence you quoted there is in the subjunctive -- i.e., it's a counterfactual ('whether [or not]' is a standard variant of 'if it were the case, or not the case that' in English sentences expressing counterfactual claims). I didn't assert that this is the case. This is distinguishable from the original sentence you used, because you asserted that something is the case (namely, that there exist profitable/sustainable industries that don't need the government).

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#36 Post by Artemis » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:27 am

A friend of mine is in Dubai for work and took this photo of people wearing gloves while eating their KFC. Apparently, they give them out with your meal. I don't know if it is to get a better grip on the greasy chicken or to preserve water so people don't have to wash their hands.
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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#37 Post by creep » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:12 am

Artemis wrote:A friend of mine is in Dubai for work and took this photo of people wearing gloves while eating their KFC. Apparently, they give them out with your meal. I don't know if it is to get a better grip on the greasy chicken or to preserve water so people don't have to wash their hands.
Image
that's a good idea. one of the things that freaks me out is eating with my hands. i hate getting food on my hands. i think it's disgusting that people eat buffalo wings. i will never eat those.

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#38 Post by Hokahey » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:31 am

creep wrote: i think it's disgusting that people eat buffalo wings. i will never eat those.
:crazy:


love em.

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#39 Post by creep » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:43 am

hokahey wrote:
creep wrote: i think it's disgusting that people eat buffalo wings. i will never eat those.
:crazy:


love em.
i would eat them with a fork and knife but that would look pretty stupid.

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Re: The dark side of Dubai

#40 Post by Hype » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:08 am


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