The Smashing Pumpkins

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Essence_Smith
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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#61 Post by Essence_Smith » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:08 pm

I am convinced Pandemonium does PR for VH... :lol:
kv wrote:
Essence_Smith wrote:
hokahey wrote:I'm not going to listen. The older I get the more I realize bands 20+ years in don't make amazing albums. They make albums you inevitably compare to the past and get disappointed and then try to listen to it on it's own merits and it still isn't very good and then you make excuses blah blah. I don't need the hassle. :lol: :cona:

I'll just keep blasting Siamese Dream and pretending I'm 14 when I need my Pumpkins fix.
:nod:
Our ears and minds are not as open as we were at that age as well...I look at Corgan now with no hair and sometimes forget its the same guy... :lol:
that's old people all right..."i'm gonna stop.."
I'm just saying...the Doors don't even sound as good to me as they did when I was a teenager...I can't front, a few weeks ago I was pumping Siamese Dream hard and even found acoustic versions of Cherub Rock I'd never heard that I got into quite a bit, but generally I see what the old greats put out now and just can't get as excited...it can't be them all the time...

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#62 Post by Pandemonium » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:04 pm

Essence_Smith wrote:I am convinced Pandemonium does PR for VH... :lol:
Well, U2 isn't active right now so I gotta plug some decade's old mainstream band, right?
Essence_Smith wrote:I'm just saying...the Doors don't even sound as good to me as they did when I was a teenager...I can't front, a few weeks ago I was pumping Siamese Dream hard and even found acoustic versions of Cherub Rock I'd never heard that I got into quite a bit, but generally I see what the old greats put out now and just can't get as excited...it can't be them all the time...
I'll say up until the early 90's it was a lot easier by sheer volume of up and coming quality acts out there to drift into new, truly great bands once the older favs started churning out dreck. And I like to think of myself as somewhat still musically adventurous so it's not like I'm focusing on sound-alike bands that remind me of favorite oldies. I know there's plenty of good new bands out there but there's no way anyone can honestly argue that there's any level of sheer inventiveness and quality coming from as many newer artists as their used to be. That's a big reason why you still have burnout bands like Van Halen, U2, Springsteen, etc still filling arenas and stadiums while there's been very few newer bands that have been able to come in and take their place (and business). Even the work ethic of most newer bands isn't anything like what it used to be. For example, Arcade Fire has put out a whopping 3 studio albums in the last decade - I think guys like The Stones, Elton John and AD/DC put out about a dozen records in that timeframe.

20+ years from now, we'll be looking at reunion tours from Arcade Fire, Green Day and Muse. Big whoop.

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#63 Post by guysmiley » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:21 pm

I'm actually digging the new album. Lots of good stuff in there. It's growing on my the last few days. I try not to compare stuff when I listen to new things. Better than Zeitgeist and the last thing Corgan did, but not as good as Adore. But, he went in a more electronic direction than I was expecting. People bash this band over being washed up ( over a lot of the same things Jane's get bashed over) but, I think Corgan can still write a great song, and he can still play some great guitar riffs and solos.

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#64 Post by Essence_Smith » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:12 pm

Pandemonium wrote:
Essence_Smith wrote:I am convinced Pandemonium does PR for VH... :lol:
Well, U2 isn't active right now so I gotta plug some decade's old mainstream band, right?
Essence_Smith wrote:I'm just saying...the Doors don't even sound as good to me as they did when I was a teenager...I can't front, a few weeks ago I was pumping Siamese Dream hard and even found acoustic versions of Cherub Rock I'd never heard that I got into quite a bit, but generally I see what the old greats put out now and just can't get as excited...it can't be them all the time...
I'll say up until the early 90's it was a lot easier by sheer volume of up and coming quality acts out there to drift into new, truly great bands once the older favs started churning out dreck. And I like to think of myself as somewhat still musically adventurous so it's not like I'm focusing on sound-alike bands that remind me of favorite oldies. I know there's plenty of good new bands out there but there's no way anyone can honestly argue that there's any level of sheer inventiveness and quality coming from as many newer artists as their used to be. That's a big reason why you still have burnout bands like Van Halen, U2, Springsteen, etc still filling arenas and stadiums while there's been very few newer bands that have been able to come in and take their place (and business). Even the work ethic of most newer bands isn't anything like what it used to be. For example, Arcade Fire has put out a whopping 3 studio albums in the last decade - I think guys like The Stones, Elton John and AD/DC put out about a dozen records in that timeframe.

20+ years from now, we'll be looking at reunion tours from Arcade Fire, Green Day and Muse. Big whoop.
Gotta concur with most of what you've said here...I don't think bands have to work as hard these days in a lot of ways and I don't think the younger audience is looking for as much substance in their music as we did so it yields a different work ethic I think...as far as new bands I thought the Black Keys were decent for about a week, though I dislike that a few bands have basically taken that White Stripes formula and haven't pulled it off half as well...I was actually glad a LOT of people I knew went to see em at the Garden when they were in NY a few months ago...I don't mind the older bands still being active but imo ya just gotta keep the expectations under control so it doesn't kill it for you...I didn't expect anything from the Peppers and they actually came up with a few songs on their last one that I love...wish I could say that for JA, but TGEA was ok imo cause though I can't say I love any of those songs the worst on that was better than the worst of Strays...I still can't believe Superhero is TV theme song... :crazy:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#65 Post by Hype » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:01 pm

I don't think the younger audience is looking for as much substance in their music as we did
What. The. Fuck?!

... "the younger audience" in the 80s listened to Madonna and Cyndi Lauper, not Joy Division and Jane's Addiction... you guys were music nerds. Music nerds today are exactly the same as you were. The general public is exactly as vapid as it's always been. :confused:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#66 Post by Deconstruction » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:15 pm

Oceania is solid, best Pumpkins album since Adore to me. Love Quasar, Pantopticon, Pinwheels, The Chimera, Pale Horse, and My Love Is Winter. The big thing is that Billy's vocals actually sound clean, not overproduced or straining like on Zeitgeist.

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#67 Post by Pandemonium » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:16 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
I don't think the younger audience is looking for as much substance in their music as we did
What. The. Fuck?!

... "the younger audience" in the 80s listened to Madonna and Cyndi Lauper, not Joy Division and Jane's Addiction... you guys were music nerds. Music nerds today are exactly the same as you were. The general public is exactly as vapid as it's always been. :confused:
Not nearly to the degree it is now. All I have to say is when was the last time you saw a rock band have a #1 single or album? Up through the last decade, it happened all the time even though there was the occasional brainless pop act dominating the charts a few months here and there.

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#68 Post by mockbee » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:35 pm

My view is that 'rock' is dead....or at least in retirement, kind of obvious, I mean look at the rock acts filling arenas......... I think House/ Electronic music is the new thing with young people....it's all I see young people listen to who seem to be 'in the know'...I don't know what groups or collaborations are the innovators but I do know that young people who aren't the 'masses' listen to electronic and house pretty much exclusively.

Maybe they said R&R was dead in the 70s as well, but that was more of a stage where it transitioned from adolescence to adulthood maybe..... :noclue:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#69 Post by Hype » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:32 pm

Pandemonium wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
I don't think the younger audience is looking for as much substance in their music as we did
What. The. Fuck?!

... "the younger audience" in the 80s listened to Madonna and Cyndi Lauper, not Joy Division and Jane's Addiction... you guys were music nerds. Music nerds today are exactly the same as you were. The general public is exactly as vapid as it's always been. :confused:
Not nearly to the degree it is now. All I have to say is when was the last time you saw a rock band have a #1 single or album? Up through the last decade, it happened all the time even though there was the occasional brainless pop act dominating the charts a few months here and there.
:confused: ... What the hell... I didn't even live through half the 80s... you did... and ... you're totally in that silly "Golden Age" thinking...

http://www.musicimprint.com/Chart.aspx?id=C000156

What has #1 singles/albums got to do with anything, anyway? The music industry is dead. But it was when people realized they could tape the radio, too.

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#70 Post by Hokahey » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:35 am

Pandemonium wrote: Arcade Fire has put out a whopping 3 studio albums in the last decade.
20+ years from now, we'll be looking at reunion tours from Arcade Fire, Green Day and Muse. Big whoop.

They've actually put out 3 records in 8 years. And they're brilliant.

And I will be front and center and stoked for any Arcade Fire show, reunion or otherwise. This band gets far too little credit, despite their devoted following, grammy, etc.

The Suburbs is some of the best music released in a long time.

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#71 Post by Essence_Smith » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:54 am

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Pandemonium wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
I don't think the younger audience is looking for as much substance in their music as we did
What. The. Fuck?!

... "the younger audience" in the 80s listened to Madonna and Cyndi Lauper, not Joy Division and Jane's Addiction... you guys were music nerds. Music nerds today are exactly the same as you were. The general public is exactly as vapid as it's always been. :confused:
Not nearly to the degree it is now. All I have to say is when was the last time you saw a rock band have a #1 single or album? Up through the last decade, it happened all the time even though there was the occasional brainless pop act dominating the charts a few months here and there.
:confused: ... What the hell... I didn't even live through half the 80s... you did... and ... you're totally in that silly "Golden Age" thinking...

http://www.musicimprint.com/Chart.aspx?id=C000156

What has #1 singles/albums got to do with anything, anyway? The music industry is dead. But it was when people realized they could tape the radio, too.
Every generation basically hold the perspective that the younger one doesn't have music that's as good, yadda yadda...but there's definitely a difference now even with pop music...I remember kids being excited when Biz Markie's "Just A Friend" was in the top ten in the Billboard charts years ago because in those days it was rare for ANY rap song to get that kind of play...now the pop charts are pretty much rap songs...rock music is not what it once was...I don't even think of the 80's and 90's as a "Golden Age" for rock based music...the best, most innovative stuff imo was hip hop at the time and was always a kid looking backwards at the 60's and 70's and even early 80's music during the 90's...I still do...but from the perspective of a musician, the business is different...it has changed the audience of popular music imo...and to be honest I LOVED Madonna and Cyndi and Metallica...I also loved Depeche Mode, the Peppers, Metallica alongside Krs One and Public Enemy and shit even Shabba Ranks and Supercat...I don't know if the general public is the same or worse than they ever have been but I think its actually worse...the pop music back in the days I could get into...nowadays it seems like pop music is more sexualized than ever, etc...I think its quite different...

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#72 Post by Matov » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:21 am

Essence_Smith wrote:Every generation basically hold the perspective that the younger one doesn't have music that's as good, yadda yadda...but there's definitely a difference now even with pop music...I remember kids being excited when Biz Markie's "Just A Friend" was in the top ten in the Billboard charts years ago because in those days it was rare for ANY rap song to get that kind of play...now the pop charts are pretty much rap songs...rock music is not what it once was...I don't even think of the 80's and 90's as a "Golden Age" for rock based music...the best, most innovative stuff imo was hip hop at the time and was always a kid looking backwards at the 60's and 70's and even early 80's music during the 90's...I still do...but from the perspective of a musician, the business is different...it has changed the audience of popular music imo...and to be honest I LOVED Madonna and Cyndi and Metallica...I also loved Depeche Mode, the Peppers, Metallica alongside Krs One and Public Enemy and shit even Shabba Ranks and Supercat...I don't know if the general public is the same or worse than they ever have been but I think its actually worse...the pop music back in the days I could get into...nowadays it seems like pop music is more sexualized than ever, etc...I think its quite different...


:oldtimer:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#73 Post by Matov » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:22 am

(mandatory immediate backpedalling)
no disrespect intended, sir

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#74 Post by Pandemonium » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:35 am

hokahey wrote:
Pandemonium wrote: Arcade Fire has put out a whopping 3 studio albums in the last decade.
20+ years from now, we'll be looking at reunion tours from Arcade Fire, Green Day and Muse. Big whoop.

They've actually put out 3 records in 8 years. And they're brilliant.

And I will be front and center and stoked for any Arcade Fire show, reunion or otherwise. This band gets far too little credit, despite their devoted following, grammy, etc.

The Suburbs is some of the best music released in a long time.
Ahh, don't get me wrong, I've often professed my love for the band but I think it sucks they've spaced out their albums and tours so far between each other. I want more. In the time they've put out their 3 albums, Led Zeppelin put out 8 albums and The Beatles something like 12 records (basically their entire career lasted 8 years)! When Arcade Fire get to reunionsville, they aren't going to have much more material to draw from than Janes did in '97. I understand slowing the pace when you're into the 2nd, 3rd or 4th decade of your career like U2, AC/DC and The Stones to the point you poop out maybe 2 new albums per decade, they've earned that level of semi-retirement but for a band that's only been around for a decade or less - that's just wasting creative time.

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#75 Post by mockbee » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:38 am

My uncle is trying to start lifting weights again and got a set of #45 dumb bells....he tries with all his might to lift them and can't seem to do it anymore.... he curses those weights to no end....he could do 10 sets of 10 reps no problem 20 years ago. He has given up and laments that nobody works out anymore.....

Edit- mostly in response to ES and a little Pandy

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#76 Post by Essence_Smith » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 am

:lol:
Ok we're just old as shit...but as my coworker likes to say the music now isn't necessarily built to last...Notorious BIG and Tupac died about 15 years ago...on the anniversary of their deaths they go crazy and play their music all day and it still holds up...but can you anyone reminiscing 20 years from now like "they don't make songs like Back That Thang Up anymore"??? :lol:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#77 Post by Matov » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:15 am

Essence_Smith wrote:..but can you anyone reminiscing 20 years from now like "they don't make songs like Back That Thang Up anymore"??? :lol:
...probably not, though with a lil bit of luck they might be remembered the same way Hammer Dance or I like big butts and i cannot lie are today.

On the other hand, they may say that same thing about this other cat, twenty years from now.


BIG and 2PAC's commercial success is neither the cause, or a real indicator of their quality as artists. Having "good" (please please please not another thread turned to "what is GOOD art anyway?") artists be commercially successful is a matter of chance, at best. Companies don't place their investments on artists based on whether they think their work has any real artistic value per se, but rather based on the premise of "will this make us get our investment back, plus a couple dollars more?". Maybe that one investment turns out to be, by chance, walking the path of the artist, maybe not. Maybe they place their money on someone who's a musician but who would also be a tv star, or a mime, if there were any profit for him/her in those activities.

So basically what i'm trying to say is that the phrase "Radio won't play good music (whatever "good music" means) anymore", is not an indicator of the lack of good music. All it means is, it's not on the radio :thumb:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#78 Post by mockbee » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:31 am

:banghead: :noclue:




Nobody works out anymore....... :no: :lol:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#79 Post by Essence_Smith » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:38 am

Matov wrote:BIG and 2PAC's commercial success is neither the cause, or a real indicator of their quality as artists. Having "good" (please please please not another thread turned to "what is GOOD art anyway?") artists be commercially successful is a matter of chance, at best. Companies don't place their investments on artists based on whether they think their work has any real artistic value per se, but rather based on the premise of "will this make us get our investment back, plus a couple dollars more?". Maybe that one investment turns out to be, by chance, walking the path of the artist, maybe not. Maybe they place their money on someone who's a musician but who would also be a tv star, or a mime, if there were any profit for him/her in those activities.

So basically what i'm trying to say is that the phrase "Radio won't play good music (whatever "good music" means) anymore", is not an indicator of the lack of good music. All it means is, it's not on the radio :thumb:
Just for the record I'm not a fan of either Pac of Biggie...I just find it remarkable that their music has held up so well and that they still mean so much to people...its kinda cool actually since I never appreciated em to see that their stuff had that kind of weight if that makes any sense... my point isn't anything to do with commercial success meaning anything...my point is that imo since the business has changed so much I don't think younger artists approach creating/promoting their music the same way. This is good and bad in many ways...artists now have tools at their disposal to literally record a song and potentially have it reach millions without even having a record company involved, etc...the old formula is dead and that's cool...but as an artist myself particularly with hip hop music I feel like its just gotten beyond lazy and the fans are not as aware of things are we were...back in the day a rapper could make a record about something political and could sell records...PE, etc etc...now? Forget about it...

Tyler Durden

Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#80 Post by Tyler Durden » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:43 am

Essence_Smith wrote:
Matov wrote:BIG and 2PAC's commercial success is neither the cause, or a real indicator of their quality as artists. Having "good" (please please please not another thread turned to "what is GOOD art anyway?") artists be commercially successful is a matter of chance, at best. Companies don't place their investments on artists based on whether they think their work has any real artistic value per se, but rather based on the premise of "will this make us get our investment back, plus a couple dollars more?". Maybe that one investment turns out to be, by chance, walking the path of the artist, maybe not. Maybe they place their money on someone who's a musician but who would also be a tv star, or a mime, if there were any profit for him/her in those activities.

So basically what i'm trying to say is that the phrase "Radio won't play good music (whatever "good music" means) anymore", is not an indicator of the lack of good music. All it means is, it's not on the radio :thumb:
Just for the record I'm not a fan of either Pac of Biggie...I just find it remarkable that their music has held up so well and that they still mean so much to people...its kinda cool actually since I never appreciated em to see that their stuff had that kind of weight if that makes any sense... my point isn't anything to do with commercial success meaning anything...my point is that imo since the business has changed so much I don't think younger artists approach creating/promoting their music the same way. This is good and bad in many ways...artists now have tools at their disposal to literally record a song and potentially have it reach millions without even having a record company involved, etc...the old formula is dead and that's cool...but as an artist myself particularly with hip hop music I feel like its just gotten beyond lazy and the fans are not as aware of things are we were...back in the day a rapper could make a record about something political and could sell records...PE, etc etc...now? Forget about it...
That's because the only people who buy records anymore are generally those who don't know how to download music. Hence, I don't think the average 9 year old is interested in hearing Rihanna sing about a politcal/social issue. :lol:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#81 Post by Hype » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:34 am

Essence_Smith wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Pandemonium wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
I don't think the younger audience is looking for as much substance in their music as we did
What. The. Fuck?!

... "the younger audience" in the 80s listened to Madonna and Cyndi Lauper, not Joy Division and Jane's Addiction... you guys were music nerds. Music nerds today are exactly the same as you were. The general public is exactly as vapid as it's always been. :confused:
Not nearly to the degree it is now. All I have to say is when was the last time you saw a rock band have a #1 single or album? Up through the last decade, it happened all the time even though there was the occasional brainless pop act dominating the charts a few months here and there.
:confused: ... What the hell... I didn't even live through half the 80s... you did... and ... you're totally in that silly "Golden Age" thinking...

http://www.musicimprint.com/Chart.aspx?id=C000156

What has #1 singles/albums got to do with anything, anyway? The music industry is dead. But it was when people realized they could tape the radio, too.
Every generation basically hold the perspective that the younger one doesn't have music that's as good, yadda yadda...but there's definitely a difference now even with pop music...I remember kids being excited when Biz Markie's "Just A Friend" was in the top ten in the Billboard charts years ago because in those days it was rare for ANY rap song to get that kind of play...now the pop charts are pretty much rap songs...rock music is not what it once was...I don't even think of the 80's and 90's as a "Golden Age" for rock based music...the best, most innovative stuff imo was hip hop at the time and was always a kid looking backwards at the 60's and 70's and even early 80's music during the 90's...I still do...but from the perspective of a musician, the business is different...it has changed the audience of popular music imo...and to be honest I LOVED Madonna and Cyndi and Metallica...I also loved Depeche Mode, the Peppers, Metallica alongside Krs One and Public Enemy and shit even Shabba Ranks and Supercat...I don't know if the general public is the same or worse than they ever have been but I think its actually worse...the pop music back in the days I could get into...nowadays it seems like pop music is more sexualized than ever, etc...I think its quite different...
It isn't. Pop music was, for me, so much worse from 1995-2005 or so than it has been since. Why do you think I got into Jane's Addiction? It's because I hated the Pearl Jam/Creed bullshit ripoffs and the Avril Lavigne shit and got tired of Eminem. (Not to mention Green Day and Coldplay... who, by the way... are not currently all that big... Pandemonium is about 5-10 years off base). :confused:

But Pop music is ALWAYS terrible. And it's cyclical, and it's always the same four-chord, repetitive chorus/verse shit.

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#82 Post by Matov » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:29 am

Essence_Smith wrote:nowadays it seems like pop music is more sexualized than ever, etc...



:boobs:

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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#83 Post by Hype » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:38 am

Actually, this reminds me of something... http://www.marxists.org/reference/archi ... dustry.htm
The eccentricity of the circus, peepshow, and brothel is as embarrassing to it as that of Schönberg and Karl Kraus. And so the jazz musician Benny Goodman appears with the Budapest string quartet, more pedantic rhythmically than any philharmonic clarinettist, while the style of the Budapest players is as uniform and sugary as that of Guy Lombardo. But what is significant is not vulgarity, stupidity, and lack of polish.

The culture industry did away with yesterday’s rubbish by its own perfection, and by forbidding and domesticating the amateurish, although it constantly allows gross blunders without which the standard of the exalted style cannot be perceived. But what is new is that the irreconcilable elements of culture, art and distraction, are subordinated to one end and subsumed under one false formula: the totality of the culture industry. It consists of repetition. That its characteristic innovations are never anything more than improvements of mass reproduction is not external to the system. It is with good reason that the interest of innumerable consumers is directed to the technique, and not to the contents – which are stubbornly repeated, outworn, and by now half-discredited. The social power which the spectators worship shows itself more effectively in the omnipresence of the stereotype imposed by technical skill than in the stale ideologies for which the ephemeral contents stand in.

Nevertheless the culture industry remains the entertainment business. Its influence over the consumers is established by entertainment; that will ultimately be broken not by an outright decree, but by the hostility inherent in the principle of entertainment to what is greater than itself. Since all the trends of the culture industry are profoundly embedded in the public by the whole social process, they are encouraged by the survival of the market in this area. Demand has not yet been replaced by simple obedience. As is well known, the major reorganisation of the film industry shortly before World War I, the material prerequisite of its expansion, was precisely its deliberate acceptance of the public’s needs as recorded at the box-office – a procedure which was hardly thought necessary in the pioneering days of the screen. The same opinion is held today by the captains of the film industry, who take as their criterion the more or less phenomenal song hits but wisely never have recourse to the judgment of truth, the opposite criterion. Business is their ideology. It is quite correct that the power of the culture industry resides in its identification with a manufactured need, and not in simple contrast to it, even if this contrast were one of complete power and complete powerlessness.
The culture industry perpetually cheats its consumers of what it perpetually promises. The promissory note which, with its plots and staging, it draws on pleasure is endlessly prolonged; the promise, which is actually all the spectacle consists of, is illusory: all it actually confirms is that the real point will never be reached, that the diner must be satisfied with the menu. In front of the appetite stimulated by all those brilliant names and images there is finally set no more than a commendation of the depressing everyday world it sought to escape. Of course works of art were not sexual exhibitions either. However, by representing deprivation as negative, they retracted, as it were, the prostitution of the impulse and rescued by mediation what was denied.

1944. :idea:
Even today the culture industry dresses works of art like political slogans and forces them upon a resistant public at reduced prices; they are as accessible for public enjoyment as a park. But the disappearance of their genuine commodity character does not mean that they have been abolished in the life of a free society, but that the last defence against their reduction to culture goods has fallen. The abolition of educational privilege by the device of clearance sales does not open for the masses the spheres from which they were formerly excluded, but, given existing social conditions, contributes directly to the decay of education and the progress of barbaric meaninglessness. Those who spent their money in the nineteenth or the early twentieth century to see a play or to go to a concert respected the performance as much as the money they spent. The bourgeois who wanted to get something out of it tried occasionally to establish some rapport with the work. Evidence for this is to be found in the literary “introductions” to works, or in the commentaries on Faust. These were the first steps toward the biographical coating and other practices to which a work of art is subjected today.
The assembly-line character of the culture industry, the synthetic, planned method of turning out its products (factory-like not only in the studio but, more or less, in the compilation of cheap biographies, pseudo-documentary novels, and hit songs) is very suited to advertising: the important individual points, by becoming detachable, interchangeable, and even technically alienated from any connected meaning, lend themselves to ends external to the work. The effect, the trick, the isolated repeatable device, have always been used to exhibit goods for advertising purposes, and today every monster close-up of a star is an advertisement for her name, and every hit song a plug for its tune. Advertising and the culture industry merge technically as well as economically. In both cases the same thing can be seen in innumerable places, and the mechanical repetition of the same culture product has come to be the same as that of the propaganda slogan. In both cases the insistent demand for effectiveness makes technology into psycho-technology, into a procedure for manipulating men. In both cases the standards are the striking yet familiar, the easy yet catchy, the skilful yet simple; the object is to overpower the customer, who is conceived as absent-minded or resistant.

Matov
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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#84 Post by Matov » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:48 pm

Though i'm no scholar i tend to be a bit skeptical of Frankfurtians. They've always seemed too manichaeistic (sp?) for my taste, even though on occations they do sound insightful. The quote is fitting for the subject but i'm not sold on the idea that there's a group of evil masterminds behind every mainstream cultural expression plotting on how to dominate the masses. :yikes:

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Hype
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Re: The Smashing Pumpkins

#85 Post by Hype » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:53 pm

Matov wrote:Though i'm no scholar i tend to be a bit skeptical of Frankfurtians. They've always seemed too manichaeistic (sp?) for my taste, even though on occations they do sound insightful. The quote is fitting for the subject but i'm not sold on the idea that there's a group of evil masterminds behind every mainstream cultural expression plotting on how to dominate the masses. :yikes:
I'm not a continental philosopher. I tend to think they're a little short on rigour. But I will say that in this case, it's relevant because it shows that people were noticing the same problems people have complained about in this thread, 70+ years ago. (In fact I'm pretty sure people complained about Mozart being too accessible -- too pop...)

As for the "group of evil masterminds", well, I wouldn't interpret that to mean there literally is a cabal of five guys sitting around plotting how to maintain control of the plebs. I suspect Adorno and Horkheimer were more likely referring to an unconscious (or subconscious) tendency that characterizes the behaviour of the ruling class, whether they mean to or not. It could be given an evolutionary/scientific explanation. (This would also partially make sense of why 4x as many CEOs are sociopathic than there are in the general population; a certain sort of callous disregard is clearly adaptive in the ecological niche that CEOs and other 'class-rulers' inhabit.) So it's not like the CEO of Geffen records sits around all day saying to himself: how can I sell the cheapest, least quality product for the highest cost, to these idiots? But that does seem to be the most accurate description of what happens in practice once an art is commodified and mass-marketed.

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