Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

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Hype
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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#26 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:45 am

Six7Six7 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:37 am
Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:55 am
Not unless you thought he was also a great songwriter. He isn't. But that's okay.
I don't know man. I think Deconstruction, OHM, and Spread were pretty solid.

I doubt Ed whateverhisnameis wrote all those too.
I love Deconstruction, but I think mostly because it includes the Jane's Addiction outtake "Iris" (aka "San Francisco"), and what I'm pretty sure are mostly EA's stream-of-consciousness lyrics and bass-driven songs. OHM I can take or leave, and I'm doubtful how much input Dave actually had on the songs themselves (which, as I've been trying to say, shouldn't diminish how great his guitar playing is -- he's one of the greatest of all time, but that doesn't make him a song-writer!). Spread... is fine. It's not excellent, and it's not anywhere near the best solo output of the post-JA efforts. I'd put Perk's Banyan stuff ahead of it for sure, and Polar Bear has some beautiful, memorable songs, despite EA's voice. I mean, songs that I actually find myself humming and wanting to hear again and again. Like "Flyer". I don't find myself wanting to hear any of DN's solo output... ever, despite trying it out again every once in a while.

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Mescal
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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#27 Post by Mescal » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am

Didn't Flea say he wrote most of OHM ? :noclue:

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Hype
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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#28 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:04 am

Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am
Didn't Flea say he wrote most of OHM ? :noclue:
Honestly, I'm pretty sure Flea wrote most of RHCP's entire catalogue, and the guitar players in that band have been a lot like Dave in JA -- amazing and important, but not key to the song-writing. Frusciante's solo output is incredible but doesn't sound anything like RHCP, and it's clear that that band can exist and write hits with or without him.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#29 Post by dannyboy » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:14 am

Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:36 am
dannyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:33 am
Wait! That’s too smart! He’s a witch!

Seriously though, don’t Then She Did and Three Days speak for themselves?
I know what you mean, but I think it's not clear what Dave's contribution is to the *songwriting*. I mean, obviously the guitar in both those songs is killer and, in Three Days, it's iconic.

Then She Did is, imho, an Eric and Perry song. The guitar is beautiful, if repetitive but it doesn't carry the song. The bass does. And I think the violin parts are as important to the song's feel as the guitar, if not more so.

I guess what I'm trying to say is not that Dave doesn't deserve credit for the incredible stuff he did, especially the bits he came up with himself. Nor am I saying those songs could exist in the exceptional form they do on the records without Dave. I was only noticing that for a band whose original format only had two albums, properly speaking, and a catalogue of maybe 45 songs, it's kind of funny that their amazing guitarist didn't really play much of a role in crafting maybe a quarter of those songs, including some of their greatest hits.
Cool, I can dig that! :thumb:

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#30 Post by dannyboy » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:19 am

Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:04 am
Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am
Didn't Flea say he wrote most of OHM ? :noclue:
Honestly, I'm pretty sure Flea wrote most of RHCP's entire catalogue, and the guitar players in that band have been a lot like Dave in JA -- amazing and important, but not key to the song-writing. Frusciante's solo output is incredible but doesn't sound anything like RHCP, and it's clear that that band can exist and write hits with or without him.

Reborn chili peppers fanboy here: i think it was once said that BSSM was 60:40 John and flea, I can’t remember which way round though. I think By The Way was very much a John album, to the point where flea almost quit. JF also used to suggest a lot of AKs melodies although I think less so from By The Way onwards.

Rhcp def sound completely different to JF solo but he’s a driving force in their song writing from BSSM onwards.

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Hype
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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#31 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:02 pm

dannyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:19 am
Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:04 am
Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am
Didn't Flea say he wrote most of OHM ? :noclue:
Honestly, I'm pretty sure Flea wrote most of RHCP's entire catalogue, and the guitar players in that band have been a lot like Dave in JA -- amazing and important, but not key to the song-writing. Frusciante's solo output is incredible but doesn't sound anything like RHCP, and it's clear that that band can exist and write hits with or without him.

Reborn chili peppers fanboy here: i think it was once said that BSSM was 60:40 John and flea, I can’t remember which way round though. I think By The Way was very much a John album, to the point where flea almost quit. JF also used to suggest a lot of AKs melodies although I think less so from By The Way onwards.

Rhcp def sound completely different to JF solo but he’s a driving force in their song writing from BSSM onwards.
I'll defer on RCHP. I have no idea. I just know that they feel like Flea's band. :lol:

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#32 Post by Mescal » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:24 pm

Yeah, I wanted to say you must be deaf :wink:

Here's proof that he wrote under the bridge (and that AK can t sing):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Zc0Nd5uxY

Here's proof that he wrote Funky Monks:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OJGbJD3z4P4

I'd say symbiosis

And don t get me wrong, I m a bass player myself, and to me Flea is (well certainly was ) the best (most creative, melodic and in the pocket player) bass player out there, but their songwriting kicked up a notch once JF was in the band. I m also sure they forge most of the songs together (like one has an idea, the other comes up with another rather than 'I just wrote the song and this is it, now play some bass over it')

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#33 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:36 pm

Oh, yeah, I mean, JF is way way way more creative than DN. Ataxia is one of my favourite things ever.

I’ll give you 60-40 JF/Flea when JF is in the band.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#34 Post by Noonesshocking » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 pm

This is wild - thanks for sharing!

Can’t agree with the short-changing of Dave ITT. Absolutely the foundations of the songs are in place here. But Ed isn’t really playing the parts as we know them. He’s kinda just noodling in ANR (the chorus doesn’t have those soaring chords) and playing some basic shapes in Idiots. Dave def embellished and firmed up these parts to a degree that I think his contributions were absolutely critical. So while I def would consider Perry and Eric the songwriting team, Dave definitely made the songs way sharper.

And I mean I don’t even have to go to bat for Stephen. It’s crazy to hear these songs without his iconic drum parts.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#35 Post by JOEinPHX » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:53 pm

Noonesshocking wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 pm
This is wild - thanks for sharing!

Can’t agree with the short-changing of Dave ITT. Absolutely the foundations of the songs are in place here. But Ed isn’t really playing the parts as we know them. He’s kinda just noodling in ANR (the chorus doesn’t have those soaring chords) and playing some basic shapes in Idiots. Dave def embellished and firmed up these parts to a degree that I think his contributions were absolutely critical. So while I def would consider Perry and Eric the songwriting team, Dave definitely made the songs way sharper.

And I mean I don’t even have to go to bat for Stephen. It’s crazy to hear these songs without his iconic drum parts.
As someone who doesn't play guitar, I agree with this assessment.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#36 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:40 pm

Noonesshocking wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 pm
Can’t agree with the short-changing of Dave ITT. Absolutely the foundations of the songs are in place.

[...]

So while I def would consider Perry and Eric the songwriting team, Dave definitely made the songs way sharper
So we all agree then. I never said Dave isn’t necessary or didn’t improve the songs. I said it’s amazing to hear these songs before his input and the takeaway, for me, is pretty clear: the songwriting was largely EA and PF. That doesn’t short-change the other two in the slightest. Perk and Dave are among the best in the biz. But it does explain Strays, TGEA, etc.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#37 Post by Pandemonium » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:07 pm

Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:36 am
Like?
Isn’t the complete 1990 Hollywood Palladium pro-shot show floating around a few uber-collectors?

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#38 Post by Mescal » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:21 am

Pandemonium wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:07 pm
Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:36 am
Like?
Isn’t the complete 1990 Hollywood Palladium pro-shot show floating around a few uber-collectors?
Aren't we sick and tired of that show?

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#39 Post by Larry B. » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:56 am

Really cool video.

To me, arguing about Dave’s contribution to the songwriting is a bit silly, as we all know and knew that when he arrived most of Jane’s songs had already been written. So, it’s not even an argument: Dave wasn’t there for most of their songs’ conception. It’s a fact. But Dave’s arrival comes with a unique sound being added to the band, and quite a signature style of playing.

It feels like having a go at David Gilmour for not having been there at the start. He added to the material that was already there and his sound is all over the material they wrote when he was there, despite Waters being the driving force.

In Jane’s, Perry and Eric were the composers, but Dave’s sound and style is all over Ritual and NS.

And while some may criticise Dave’s solo material, I’d think it’d be more fair to address what he wrote around Jane’s time, not what he wrote like 10-15 years later, as he’s a completely different person by then. Deconstruction is genius, particularly its guitar tracks. TNO is over-produced, and yet the songs aren’t bad.

Anyway, thank you for sharing this video. It was amazing to see how fucked up Perry was.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#40 Post by JOEinPHX » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:22 pm

Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:40 pm
, for me, is pretty clear: the songwriting was largely EA and PF.
But we've known for that 35 years.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#41 Post by Hype » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:25 pm

Six7Six7 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:22 pm
Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:40 pm
, for me, is pretty clear: the songwriting was largely EA and PF.
But we've known for that 35 years.
I know. All I wanted to say was that this video really crystallizes that thought. For some reason some of you thought I was just ragging on Dave. :noclue:

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#42 Post by Stickyfingers » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:21 pm

dannyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:14 am
I disagree with the views that diminish Dave’s contribution.
Yeah, he wasn’t there a the start while they wrote some songs and it’s true he didn’t change the old guitar parts too much but I don’t think he needed to. He wasn’t being egotistical by completely changing stuff (which Eric or Perry might have written) for the sake of it but instead did what worked for the song.

I remember him once saying that perry wrote the intro to ocean size and he didn’t feel it could be improved upon so played it exactly as he’d been shown.

I’m pretty sure he had significant input into Stop! Then She Did..., Three Days and a few others. Not to be sniffed at.

Anyway, if anyone is hoarding an old video of them writing and rehearsing, you can clear this up once and for all!
I think it's fair to say DN and SP are jane's addiction signature and Janes are not janes without them two.

But it's unfair for Dave and Steve after two years later go into a studio to record NS and ask equal 25% each of songwriting.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#43 Post by JOEinPHX » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:54 am

Stickyfingers wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:21 pm
dannyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:14 am
I disagree with the views that diminish Dave’s contribution.
Yeah, he wasn’t there a the start while they wrote some songs and it’s true he didn’t change the old guitar parts too much but I don’t think he needed to. He wasn’t being egotistical by completely changing stuff (which Eric or Perry might have written) for the sake of it but instead did what worked for the song.

I remember him once saying that perry wrote the intro to ocean size and he didn’t feel it could be improved upon so played it exactly as he’d been shown.

I’m pretty sure he had significant input into Stop! Then She Did..., Three Days and a few others. Not to be sniffed at.

Anyway, if anyone is hoarding an old video of them writing and rehearsing, you can clear this up once and for all!
I think it's fair to say DN and SP are jane's addiction signature and Janes are not janes without them two.

But it's unfair for Dave and Steve after two years later go into a studio to record NS and ask equal 25% each of songwriting.
Pretty sure what Dave and Stephen played were not what their predecessors played.

You write a new part, you get writing credit.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#44 Post by Stickyfingers » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:13 pm

Six7Six7 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:54 am
Pretty sure what Dave and Stephen played were not what their predecessors played.

You write a new part, you get writing credit.


12.5% is pretty fair for their contribution to the songs.

Dave Jerden is a great producer and I'm sure could have done a great album even with those two previous guys.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#45 Post by someguy » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:07 pm

I think I better understand the rationale behind the percentage splits now. Perry was probably thinking linearly in term of writing, and any ideas Dave and Perk came up with were bound to what was already in place. So with a song like Ain't No Right that had been written before those two joined, the guitar part Dave plays over it doesn't constitute a chorus since technically its an embellishment. Soundgarden works the same way- Kim doesn't necessarily agree with this approach but apparently its pretty common.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#46 Post by Larry B. » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:47 am

Six7Six7 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:54 am
You write a new part, you get writing credit.
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. When you arrive into a band, you usually play what was there before but with your own ‘colours’, so to speak. That’s not really a new part. If there’s space for a solo and you don’t copy the previous person’s solo, that’s all you... but still isn’t a new part.

I’d bet that songs like Classic Girl and Then She Did... were not written by Perry with all the details and nuances in the guitar as Dave plays them. That’s pretty obvious, as Perry can’t play the guitar nowhere as proficiently as Dave. But Dave didn’t compose a new part, he did what all musicians do: play a part like you would play that part.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#47 Post by dannyboy » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:56 am

Hype wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:25 pm
Six7Six7 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:22 pm
Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:40 pm
, for me, is pretty clear: the songwriting was largely EA and PF.
But we've known for that 35 years.
I know. All I wanted to say was that this video really crystallizes that thought. For some reason some of you thought I was just ragging on Dave. :noclue:
Ok that’s my bad! I’ve had a bee in my bonnet about it for a while but never posted; this time, when I saw my opening, I didn’t hesitate!

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#48 Post by Matz » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:24 am

Larry B. wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:47 am
Six7Six7 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:54 am
You write a new part, you get writing credit.
I’d bet that songs like Classic Girl and Then She Did... were not written by Perry with all the details and nuances in the guitar as Dave plays them. That’s pretty obvious, as Perry can’t play the guitar nowhere as proficiently as Dave. But Dave didn’t compose a new part, he did what all musicians do: play a part like you would play that part.
Right, same with a song like My friends, where Flea wrote the chords and the melody and possibly the words too and Dave "just" came in and decorated the christmas tree. "yeah, yeah, Dave's just a reactor blablabla".....not true! The Spread/TNO songs are very well written, he's a strong songwriter. Or I should probably say was, cause those days are probably over by now.

On another note: I thought Dave and Perry wrote Classic girl together. Off to library to study up :essence:

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#49 Post by dannyboy » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:49 am

I’ve always wanted to hearFlea’s original composition of My Friends. I thought Anthony had completely rewritten the lyrics but hard to know without hearing the original

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#50 Post by cabangbangq » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:42 pm

Pandemonium wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:07 pm
Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:36 am
Like?
Isn’t the complete 1990 Hollywood Palladium pro-shot show floating around a few uber-collectors?
If so, I'd love to get a link to that!

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