Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

Discussion regarding Jane's Addiction news and associated projects
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Hype
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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#21 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:55 am

dannyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:14 am
I disagree with the views that diminish Dave’s contribution.
Yeah, he wasn’t there a the start while they wrote some songs and it’s true he didn’t change the old guitar parts too much but I don’t think he needed to. He wasn’t being egotistical by completely changing stuff (which Eric or Perry might have written) for the sake of it but instead did what worked for the song.

I remember him once saying that perry wrote the intro to ocean size and he didn’t feel it could be improved upon so played it exactly as he’d been shown.

I’m pretty sure he had significant input into Stop! Then She Did..., Three Days and a few others. Not to be sniffed at.

Anyway, if anyone is hoarding an old video of them writing and rehearsing, you can clear this up once and for all!
Even what you admit here "diminish[es] Dave's contribution" if you start with the belief that Dave was integral to the development of JA's sound, songwriting, whatever -- obviously you don't have that belief, but I'm sure many do. It literally does diminish that idea to know that so many of the songs were essentially complete before he joined, and, as you also note, much of the ideas for other songs came from EA and Perry. Does that diminish what a great guitar player Dave is? No, of course not. Not unless you thought he was also a great songwriter. He isn't. But that's okay. Would JA have been the same without him? No. Again, of course not. But this definitely does help put JA's post-EA output in proper perspective. You can hear how strong the goth influence is in that video, which is what... six months after Psi Com was released?

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#22 Post by dannyboy » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:33 am

Wait! That’s too smart! He’s a witch!

Seriously though, don’t Then She Did and Three Days speak for themselves?

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#23 Post by dannyboy » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:36 am

bman wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:35 am
So what are the great videos still out there that we haven't seen? There's gotta be tons of VHS stuff that Casey or other friends recorded. Like rehearsals, jam sessions etc. That's what I would love to see. More home movies.

That’s just what I was thinking earlier.

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Hype
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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#24 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:36 am

dannyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:33 am
Wait! That’s too smart! He’s a witch!

Seriously though, don’t Then She Did and Three Days speak for themselves?
I know what you mean, but I think it's not clear what Dave's contribution is to the *songwriting*. I mean, obviously the guitar in both those songs is killer and, in Three Days, it's iconic.

Then She Did is, imho, an Eric and Perry song. The guitar is beautiful, if repetitive but it doesn't carry the song. The bass does. And I think the violin parts are as important to the song's feel as the guitar, if not more so.

I guess what I'm trying to say is not that Dave doesn't deserve credit for the incredible stuff he did, especially the bits he came up with himself. Nor am I saying those songs could exist in the exceptional form they do on the records without Dave. I was only noticing that for a band whose original format only had two albums, properly speaking, and a catalogue of maybe 45 songs, it's kind of funny that their amazing guitarist didn't really play much of a role in crafting maybe a quarter of those songs, including some of their greatest hits.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#25 Post by Six7Six7 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:37 am

Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:55 am
Not unless you thought he was also a great songwriter. He isn't. But that's okay.
I don't know man. I think Deconstruction, OHM, and Spread were pretty solid.

I doubt Ed whateverhisnameis wrote all those too.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#26 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:45 am

Six7Six7 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:37 am
Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:55 am
Not unless you thought he was also a great songwriter. He isn't. But that's okay.
I don't know man. I think Deconstruction, OHM, and Spread were pretty solid.

I doubt Ed whateverhisnameis wrote all those too.
I love Deconstruction, but I think mostly because it includes the Jane's Addiction outtake "Iris" (aka "San Francisco"), and what I'm pretty sure are mostly EA's stream-of-consciousness lyrics and bass-driven songs. OHM I can take or leave, and I'm doubtful how much input Dave actually had on the songs themselves (which, as I've been trying to say, shouldn't diminish how great his guitar playing is -- he's one of the greatest of all time, but that doesn't make him a song-writer!). Spread... is fine. It's not excellent, and it's not anywhere near the best solo output of the post-JA efforts. I'd put Perk's Banyan stuff ahead of it for sure, and Polar Bear has some beautiful, memorable songs, despite EA's voice. I mean, songs that I actually find myself humming and wanting to hear again and again. Like "Flyer". I don't find myself wanting to hear any of DN's solo output... ever, despite trying it out again every once in a while.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#27 Post by Mescal » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am

Didn't Flea say he wrote most of OHM ? :noclue:

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#28 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:04 am

Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am
Didn't Flea say he wrote most of OHM ? :noclue:
Honestly, I'm pretty sure Flea wrote most of RHCP's entire catalogue, and the guitar players in that band have been a lot like Dave in JA -- amazing and important, but not key to the song-writing. Frusciante's solo output is incredible but doesn't sound anything like RHCP, and it's clear that that band can exist and write hits with or without him.

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dannyboy
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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#29 Post by dannyboy » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:14 am

Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:36 am
dannyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:33 am
Wait! That’s too smart! He’s a witch!

Seriously though, don’t Then She Did and Three Days speak for themselves?
I know what you mean, but I think it's not clear what Dave's contribution is to the *songwriting*. I mean, obviously the guitar in both those songs is killer and, in Three Days, it's iconic.

Then She Did is, imho, an Eric and Perry song. The guitar is beautiful, if repetitive but it doesn't carry the song. The bass does. And I think the violin parts are as important to the song's feel as the guitar, if not more so.

I guess what I'm trying to say is not that Dave doesn't deserve credit for the incredible stuff he did, especially the bits he came up with himself. Nor am I saying those songs could exist in the exceptional form they do on the records without Dave. I was only noticing that for a band whose original format only had two albums, properly speaking, and a catalogue of maybe 45 songs, it's kind of funny that their amazing guitarist didn't really play much of a role in crafting maybe a quarter of those songs, including some of their greatest hits.
Cool, I can dig that! :thumb:

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dannyboy
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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#30 Post by dannyboy » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:19 am

Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:04 am
Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am
Didn't Flea say he wrote most of OHM ? :noclue:
Honestly, I'm pretty sure Flea wrote most of RHCP's entire catalogue, and the guitar players in that band have been a lot like Dave in JA -- amazing and important, but not key to the song-writing. Frusciante's solo output is incredible but doesn't sound anything like RHCP, and it's clear that that band can exist and write hits with or without him.

Reborn chili peppers fanboy here: i think it was once said that BSSM was 60:40 John and flea, I can’t remember which way round though. I think By The Way was very much a John album, to the point where flea almost quit. JF also used to suggest a lot of AKs melodies although I think less so from By The Way onwards.

Rhcp def sound completely different to JF solo but he’s a driving force in their song writing from BSSM onwards.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#31 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:02 pm

dannyboy wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:19 am
Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:04 am
Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am
Didn't Flea say he wrote most of OHM ? :noclue:
Honestly, I'm pretty sure Flea wrote most of RHCP's entire catalogue, and the guitar players in that band have been a lot like Dave in JA -- amazing and important, but not key to the song-writing. Frusciante's solo output is incredible but doesn't sound anything like RHCP, and it's clear that that band can exist and write hits with or without him.

Reborn chili peppers fanboy here: i think it was once said that BSSM was 60:40 John and flea, I can’t remember which way round though. I think By The Way was very much a John album, to the point where flea almost quit. JF also used to suggest a lot of AKs melodies although I think less so from By The Way onwards.

Rhcp def sound completely different to JF solo but he’s a driving force in their song writing from BSSM onwards.
I'll defer on RCHP. I have no idea. I just know that they feel like Flea's band. :lol:

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#32 Post by Mescal » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:24 pm

Yeah, I wanted to say you must be deaf :wink:

Here's proof that he wrote under the bridge (and that AK can t sing):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Zc0Nd5uxY

Here's proof that he wrote Funky Monks:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OJGbJD3z4P4

I'd say symbiosis

And don t get me wrong, I m a bass player myself, and to me Flea is (well certainly was ) the best (most creative, melodic and in the pocket player) bass player out there, but their songwriting kicked up a notch once JF was in the band. I m also sure they forge most of the songs together (like one has an idea, the other comes up with another rather than 'I just wrote the song and this is it, now play some bass over it')

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#33 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:36 pm

Oh, yeah, I mean, JF is way way way more creative than DN. Ataxia is one of my favourite things ever.

I’ll give you 60-40 JF/Flea when JF is in the band.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#34 Post by Noonesshocking » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 pm

This is wild - thanks for sharing!

Can’t agree with the short-changing of Dave ITT. Absolutely the foundations of the songs are in place here. But Ed isn’t really playing the parts as we know them. He’s kinda just noodling in ANR (the chorus doesn’t have those soaring chords) and playing some basic shapes in Idiots. Dave def embellished and firmed up these parts to a degree that I think his contributions were absolutely critical. So while I def would consider Perry and Eric the songwriting team, Dave definitely made the songs way sharper.

And I mean I don’t even have to go to bat for Stephen. It’s crazy to hear these songs without his iconic drum parts.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#35 Post by Six7Six7 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:53 pm

Noonesshocking wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 pm
This is wild - thanks for sharing!

Can’t agree with the short-changing of Dave ITT. Absolutely the foundations of the songs are in place here. But Ed isn’t really playing the parts as we know them. He’s kinda just noodling in ANR (the chorus doesn’t have those soaring chords) and playing some basic shapes in Idiots. Dave def embellished and firmed up these parts to a degree that I think his contributions were absolutely critical. So while I def would consider Perry and Eric the songwriting team, Dave definitely made the songs way sharper.

And I mean I don’t even have to go to bat for Stephen. It’s crazy to hear these songs without his iconic drum parts.
As someone who doesn't play guitar, I agree with this assessment.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#36 Post by Hype » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:40 pm

Noonesshocking wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:41 pm
Can’t agree with the short-changing of Dave ITT. Absolutely the foundations of the songs are in place.

[...]

So while I def would consider Perry and Eric the songwriting team, Dave definitely made the songs way sharper
So we all agree then. I never said Dave isn’t necessary or didn’t improve the songs. I said it’s amazing to hear these songs before his input and the takeaway, for me, is pretty clear: the songwriting was largely EA and PF. That doesn’t short-change the other two in the slightest. Perk and Dave are among the best in the biz. But it does explain Strays, TGEA, etc.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#37 Post by Pandemonium » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:07 pm

Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:36 am
Like?
Isn’t the complete 1990 Hollywood Palladium pro-shot show floating around a few uber-collectors?

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#38 Post by Mescal » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:21 am

Pandemonium wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:07 pm
Mescal wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:36 am
Like?
Isn’t the complete 1990 Hollywood Palladium pro-shot show floating around a few uber-collectors?
Aren't we sick and tired of that show?

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#39 Post by Larry B. » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:56 am

Really cool video.

To me, arguing about Dave’s contribution to the songwriting is a bit silly, as we all know and knew that when he arrived most of Jane’s songs had already been written. So, it’s not even an argument: Dave wasn’t there for most of their songs’ conception. It’s a fact. But Dave’s arrival comes with a unique sound being added to the band, and quite a signature style of playing.

It feels like having a go at David Gilmour for not having been there at the start. He added to the material that was already there and his sound is all over the material they wrote when he was there, despite Waters being the driving force.

In Jane’s, Perry and Eric were the composers, but Dave’s sound and style is all over Ritual and NS.

And while some may criticise Dave’s solo material, I’d think it’d be more fair to address what he wrote around Jane’s time, not what he wrote like 10-15 years later, as he’s a completely different person by then. Deconstruction is genius, particularly its guitar tracks. TNO is over-produced, and yet the songs aren’t bad.

Anyway, thank you for sharing this video. It was amazing to see how fucked up Perry was.

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Re: Fuck! A really, really old janes video - pre Dave and Steve

#40 Post by Six7Six7 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:22 pm

Hype wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:40 pm
, for me, is pretty clear: the songwriting was largely EA and PF.
But we've known for that 35 years.

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