Navarro: What makes him great?

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Tyler Durden
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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#76 Post by Tyler Durden » Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:50 pm

parklife03 wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:43 pm
I actually like some songs from The Panic Channel album
If I’m going to be completely fair, I have to admit I like the track “Awake”. If Perry had sung on that, I would’ve loved it.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#77 Post by clickie » Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:13 pm

This thread started from a fans perspective of why Dave's great then turned into wondering why anyone considers Dave great.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#78 Post by someguy » Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:32 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:50 pm
parklife03 wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:43 pm
I actually like some songs from The Panic Channel album
If I’m going to be completely fair, I have to admit I like the track “Awake”. If Perry had sung on that, I would’ve loved it.
There are bit and pieces of songs that I feel could’ve been part of great Janes songs- like the windy guitar part that comes in a few times of the chorus of Left To Lose and the chorus of night one

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#79 Post by LongCovid » Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:39 am

Dave is the best at spray painting stencils and drawing on leather jackets. :rockon:

Best,

Long Covid

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#80 Post by autumnan » Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:23 pm

clickie wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:13 pm
This thread started from a fans perspective of why Dave's great then turned into wondering why anyone considers Dave great.
:lol: Yeah, it didn't take long did it! Every thread seems to find its 'disaster porn' critical mass before the end of page 2.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#81 Post by clickie » Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:31 pm

I don't know, after reading this thread maybe it's for the best Dave sits this one out

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#82 Post by janesformerfan » Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:05 am

Hi,

Sorry for the wall of text, but this thread and the recent developments have actually inspired me to find my username and post again after many years, so this is a lot of thinking encapsulated into a single post. I used to have an account with the username „janesbiggestfan” hehe. Last time I posted was when Dave showed up with a grey beard and hair several years back. I remember thinking then that he probably started using heroin again.

So, I became a Jane’s fan around 2000 after being introduced to adult music fandom in 1999, aged 14, when the Scar Tissue single was playing in my country all the time on the radio. RHCP became the first "maturely" and consciously experienced rock band for me. Before that I would just watch whatever pop song was on MTV or VIVA. Long story short: from Californication i quickly went into their other albums. This included OHM, and I immediately fell in love with the darkness of that record which propelled me to dive into Jane’s and all the related material. Jane’s became my all time favorite band, even exceeding the Peppers, and Navarro became my hero and a paragon of coolness that I desperately wanted to emulate.

But life went on, year after year, and by 2004 i somehow lost interest in the band. To the point that I completely overlooked both Strays and the whole reunion/breakup drama when it was taking place and only arrived at it 2 years later, if I remember correctly.

Still, for many years I was a somewhat typical nerdy obsessive fan of Jane’s. Always bugging my friends and acquaintances about how in 1988-1991 Jane’s was the best band in the world etc. Always trying to sell them on the band, even though most couldn’t bother due to not liking the singer’s voice. I would go on and on about them being the second coming of Led Zeppelin, if they had just kept at it, that is.

I honestly used to think it was all about Dave’s guitar playing and I didn’t give a shit about Eric. Well, I obviously appreciated him in general, but didn’t believe the narrative that Eric was the creative force behind the band. Call me naive but for many years I even thought that it was Dave singing on Deconstruction! :) I almost died when I learned it was Eric. Another such heart breaking moment came when I heard the pre-Dave demos of Jane’s original batch of songs, and realized they were basically the same songs and same riffs, except for Dave’s soloing prowess. Wow. I still remember the pain of my illusions getting totally crushed!

Over the years I became more and more frustrated and cynical about the band. Their great comeback proved a great disappointment. For years I had been daydreaming (as many fans did, I’m sure) of what could have been and what would have been had Jane’s not broken up in 1991. I used to dream of these potential records that in my mind would be a combination of the material from PFP and GGU and Deconstruction and OHM and SYTBS and TNO, with the exception that these songs would all be even better with the four of them playing together (oh, and I used to obsess over the seminal Hard Charger track, which in these fantasies of mine played the role of Jane’s booming lead track to open the encore part of shows). I spent many years in this universe of Jane's related "what could have been" daydreaming.

One thing that sort of soured my attitude, diminished these expectations and even made me feel increasingly stupid about having been this Jane’s fanboy for so many years was the fact that in the meantime the Chili Peppers made such an unbelievable comeback success story out of John’s return, while Jane’s continued to lose time, ruining its potential, playing the shitty 12 same song setlists for 30 years, and increasingly fading into obscurity.

Several years back I felt this strange itch to go through their entire discography and through all the related bands and albums and at some point it hit me: when left to his own devices, Dave’s musical contribution and preferences are really those of simple cock rock music. He’s an unbelievable guitar player, but at the same time he is shitty, bland and boring when he has to carry the songwriting part. We just didn't notice because he had such unbelievable good luck when it comes to working with other musicians who carried all these projects into greatness.

In my opinion Camp Freddy and the other cover band isn’t some cashgrab for him. Neither was Panic Channel. He really feels at home playing Ozzy’s songs from the 80s. That’s who he is. All the material where he is the main writer is just painfully bad regurgitation of that exact type of music, or, alternatively, a bad copy of 80s new wave shit.

Dave has his strengths. Space, atmosphere, texture, hell yeah. That is Dave’s forte. But I haven’t heard a song that he actually wrote that I would like. I know he only added colour and little snippets to One Hot Minute, which was mostly written by Flea, and you can feel that some of these guitar parts are really good. The same is true for the beautiful little snippets from the TGEA sessions videos. They were supposedly never used, but they were intriguing. The old tumblr videos where he was playing the „Splash a little water on it” guitar parts were amazing. But the whole song ended up being shitty, with the parts completely buried.

This is the essence of Dave’s problem. He comes up with interesting soundscapes and little snippets. Musical soundscapes. Interesting moody atmospheric guitar parts. Yes. But when it comes to fully finished, actual songs placed on the album, they all are so severely lacking. He really isn’t a good music writer. The only TGEA song that’s truly great, Underground, IIRC came exclusively from Perry’s solo efforts, which tells you all you need to know. Dave’s shredding on the guitar never translates into songwriting even half as good as tunes that Perry fucking hummed to someone in a garage. That’s ironic as hell.

Many of you probably remember that Dave did sort of address the criticism in relation to Strays numerous times and always blamed it on the production. As if production was the reason for bad songwriting. There was also one time on his podcast where he brought up the same line of defense in relation to TGEA, which is already kind of laughable. I also vaguely remember him having issues with how his solo record was produced and he supposedly also didn’t like the production on the Panic Channel album. Man, if you record 5 albums over the course of 12 years and you don’t like the production on any one of them then maybe it’s not the production at fault.

Instead, in my opinion, the problem lies in the collective (non-Perry and non-Eric members of the bands) and very painful lack of ability to write good tunes. You can’t produce your way out of shitty songwriting. This is a logical error that some people fall into. The NHC songs (i listened to around 10 of them on Youyube) are just more of the same. Instantly forgettable, bad songwriting. They have exactly zero percent of this hard-to-pinpoint quality that made Jane’s great.

I don’t mean this opinion to sound like some sort of historical revisionism. Let's be clear: Dave’s guitar playing on XXX, NS and RDLH is amazing. Some of the guitar parts are truly magical. Some of the solos are among the best solos in rock and roll history. But he’s not a band leader nor song writer. He hasn’t put out anything over these 30 years to show us otherwise. And that's OK. He's accomplished more than most of us here anyway. But it is necessary to accept this fact, as I have after many years of denial, in order to move on and leave the frustration behind.

Nevertheless, I wish Dave well and I hope he breaks out of his current problems, whatever they may be. I’m still hoping for new music by all four of them, but please Dave, if you do join the band in the studio, please don’t try to be the leading guy, lest we get more Strays/TNO/TGEA sounding dogshit.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#83 Post by Hype » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:51 am

someguy wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 9:56 am
I feel like Dave was by far the most into it out anyone in PC.
The symbol was his head.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#84 Post by clickie » Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:59 am

janesformerfan wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:05 am
Hi,

Sorry for the wall of text, but this thread and the recent developments have actually inspired me to find my username and post again after many years, so this is a lot of thinking encapsulated into a single post. I used to have an account with the username „janesbiggestfan” hehe. Last time I posted was when Dave showed up with a grey beard and hair several years back. I remember thinking then that he probably started using heroin again.

So, I became a Jane’s fan around 2000 after being introduced to adult music fandom in 1999, aged 14, when the Scar Tissue single was playing in my country all the time on the radio. RHCP became the first "maturely" and consciously experienced rock band for me. Before that I would just watch whatever pop song was on MTV or VIVA. Long story short: from Californication i quickly went into their other albums. This included OHM, and I immediately fell in love with the darkness of that record which propelled me to dive into Jane’s and all the related material. Jane’s became my all time favorite band, even exceeding the Peppers, and Navarro became my hero and a paragon of coolness that I desperately wanted to emulate.

But life went on, year after year, and by 2004 i somehow lost interest in the band. To the point that I completely overlooked both Strays and the whole reunion/breakup drama when it was taking place and only arrived at it 2 years later, if I remember correctly.

Still, for many years I was a somewhat typical nerdy obsessive fan of Jane’s. Always bugging my friends and acquaintances about how in 1988-1991 Jane’s was the best band in the world etc. Always trying to sell them on the band, even though most couldn’t bother due to not liking the singer’s voice. I would go on and on about them being the second coming of Led Zeppelin, if they had just kept at it, that is.

I honestly used to think it was all about Dave’s guitar playing and I didn’t give a shit about Eric. Well, I obviously appreciated him in general, but didn’t believe the narrative that Eric was the creative force behind the band. Call me naive but for many years I even thought that it was Dave singing on Deconstruction! :) I almost died when I learned it was Eric. Another such heart breaking moment came when I heard the pre-Dave demos of Jane’s original batch of songs, and realized they were basically the same songs and same riffs, except for Dave’s soloing prowess. Wow. I still remember the pain of my illusions getting totally crushed!

Over the years I became more and more frustrated and cynical about the band. Their great comeback proved a great disappointment. For years I had been daydreaming (as many fans did, I’m sure) of what could have been and what would have been had Jane’s not broken up in 1991. I used to dream of these potential records that in my mind would be a combination of the material from PFP and GGU and Deconstruction and OHM and SYTBS and TNO, with the exception that these songs would all be even better with the four of them playing together (oh, and I used to obsess over the seminal Hard Charger track, which in these fantasies of mine played the role of Jane’s booming lead track to open the encore part of shows). I spent many years in this universe of Jane's related "what could have been" daydreaming.

One thing that sort of soured my attitude, diminished these expectations and even made me feel increasingly stupid about having been this Jane’s fanboy for so many years was the fact that in the meantime the Chili Peppers made such an unbelievable comeback success story out of John’s return, while Jane’s continued to lose time, ruining its potential, playing the shitty 12 same song setlists for 30 years, and increasingly fading into obscurity.

Several years back I felt this strange itch to go through their entire discography and through all the related bands and albums and at some point it hit me: when left to his own devices, Dave’s musical contribution and preferences are really those of simple cock rock music. He’s an unbelievable guitar player, but at the same time he is shitty, bland and boring when he has to carry the songwriting part. We just didn't notice because he had such unbelievable good luck when it comes to working with other musicians who carried all these projects into greatness.

In my opinion Camp Freddy and the other cover band isn’t some cashgrab for him. Neither was Panic Channel. He really feels at home playing Ozzy’s songs from the 80s. That’s who he is. All the material where he is the main writer is just painfully bad regurgitation of that exact type of music, or, alternatively, a bad copy of 80s new wave shit.

Dave has his strengths. Space, atmosphere, texture, hell yeah. That is Dave’s forte. But I haven’t heard a song that he actually wrote that I would like. I know he only added colour and little snippets to One Hot Minute, which was mostly written by Flea, and you can feel that some of these guitar parts are really good. The same is true for the beautiful little snippets from the TGEA sessions videos. They were supposedly never used, but they were intriguing. The old tumblr videos where he was playing the „Splash a little water on it” guitar parts were amazing. But the whole song ended up being shitty, with the parts completely buried.

This is the essence of Dave’s problem. He comes up with interesting soundscapes and little snippets. Musical soundscapes. Interesting moody atmospheric guitar parts. Yes. But when it comes to fully finished, actual songs placed on the album, they all are so severely lacking. He really isn’t a good music writer. The only TGEA song that’s truly great, Underground, IIRC came exclusively from Perry’s solo efforts, which tells you all you need to know. Dave’s shredding on the guitar never translates into songwriting even half as good as tunes that Perry fucking hummed to someone in a garage. That’s ironic as hell.

Many of you probably remember that Dave did sort of address the criticism in relation to Strays numerous times and always blamed it on the production. As if production was the reason for bad songwriting. There was also one time on his podcast where he brought up the same line of defense in relation to TGEA, which is already kind of laughable. I also vaguely remember him having issues with how his solo record was produced and he supposedly also didn’t like the production on the Panic Channel album. Man, if you record 5 albums over the course of 12 years and you don’t like the production on any one of them then maybe it’s not the production at fault.

Instead, in my opinion, the problem lies in the collective (non-Perry and non-Eric members of the bands) and very painful lack of ability to write good tunes. You can’t produce your way out of shitty songwriting. This is a logical error that some people fall into. The NHC songs (i listened to around 10 of them on Youyube) are just more of the same. Instantly forgettable, bad songwriting. They have exactly zero percent of this hard-to-pinpoint quality that made Jane’s great.

I don’t mean this opinion to sound like some sort of historical revisionism. Let's be clear: Dave’s guitar playing on XXX, NS and RDLH is amazing. Some of the guitar parts are truly magical. Some of the solos are among the best solos in rock and roll history. But he’s not a band leader nor song writer. He hasn’t put out anything over these 30 years to show us otherwise. And that's OK. He's accomplished more than most of us here anyway. But it is necessary to accept this fact, as I have after many years of denial, in order to move on and leave the frustration behind.

Nevertheless, I wish Dave well and I hope he breaks out of his current problems, whatever they may be. I’m still hoping for new music by all four of them, but please Dave, if you do join the band in the studio, please don’t try to be the leading guy, lest we get more Strays/TNO/TGEA sounding dogshit.




That was a wall of text but I could tell it came straight from the heart.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#85 Post by lucio » Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:29 pm

janesformerfan wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:05 am

"... I used to obsess over the seminal Hard Charger track, which in these fantasies of mine played the role of Jane’s booming lead track to open the encore part of shows). "

"...while Jane’s continued to lose time, ruining its potential, playing the shitty 12 same song setlists for 30 years, and increasingly fading into obscurity. "

"...when left to his own devices, Dave’s musical contribution and preferences are really those of simple cock rock music. "

"...but please Dave, if you do join the band in the studio, please don’t try to be the leading guy, lest we get more Strays/TNO/TGEA sounding dogshit."
Long post but I agree with almost everything stated. I quoted the points that stand out. Perry really missed it by not performing Hard Charger in the Porno reunion, Janes or solo. Janes did and still does ruin their potential by staying with mostly the same set since Relapse and not putting out anything new but once every 5 to 10 years.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#86 Post by guysmiley » Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:19 pm

Dave owes us nothing. I wish him health and a happy life, even if that means never hearing music from him again. He played guitar on three days, that's enough to be in my Mt. Rushmore of music. I hope he gets help if he is struggling with relapse. I don't want to wake up and hear about another musician gone too early.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#87 Post by janesformerfan » Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:27 am

Wow, I think I have to backtrack on what I said above.

After rereading my post I realized that I was unnecessarily and unfairly harsh in my criticism.

I don’t really think Dave’s output is dogshit. It’s just that it is, fundamentally speaking, straight and regular rock. There are already thousands of straight rock bands out there and straight rocking is not why a bunch of people still cares about Jane’s 30 years after the end of their original run.

I really hope Dave is happy, regardless of what ends up happening. I certainly wouldn’t want him to suffer the fate of all those musicians who overdosed on phentanyl or painkillers due to soulcrushing touring committments. It’s true that these guys owe us nothing.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#88 Post by HiHeHo » Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:43 am

It’s his penis. His penis makes him a great guitar player.

In seriousness, I hope the 4 original can find the magic again. Music is hard and relationships are hard. Hopefully Jane can get her groove back.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#89 Post by clickie » Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:43 am

Does Dave still live in that house when he was on an episode of Cribs? It looked so cool.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#90 Post by kv » Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:00 pm

guysmiley wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:19 pm
Dave owes us nothing. I wish him health and a happy life, even if that means never hearing music from him again. He played guitar on three days, that's enough to be in my Mt. Rushmore of music. I hope he gets help if he is struggling with relapse. I don't want to wake up and hear about another musician gone too early.
:tiphat:

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#91 Post by LifeIsLoud » Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:05 pm

clickie wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:43 am
Does Dave still live in that house when he was on an episode of Cribs? It looked so cool.
2 years ago anyways, he was living here (second half of the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzyzu9g ... ockStudios

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#92 Post by Hokahey » Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:31 pm

Who said Dave owes us something?

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#93 Post by guysmiley » Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:30 pm

Well talking about his merits and new music...sounds like there's expectations. I have none, and I think I'm ok with that.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#94 Post by dannyboy » Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:32 am

LifeIsLoud wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:05 pm
clickie wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:43 am
Does Dave still live in that house when he was on an episode of Cribs? It looked so cool.
2 years ago anyways, he was living here (second half of the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzyzu9g ... ockStudios

I just watched the video. It struck me when Dave is taking about the guitars he has hanging up but then says he doesn’t want music stuff in the house because “I don’t wanna bring work home”

It’s like he really isn’t into making music at all anymore (and this is pre long Covid) , which to be fair we’ve all sensed. It’s not even like he’s done much music in the last 10 years anyway so it’s weird that he considers it “work”.

It wouldn’t be so hard to understand, I suppose, but Jane’s are so magical and his chemistry with eric, Stephen and Perry is so great that you’d think he would be more excited about making new music. I do understand reluctance to tour at the moment but if they just jammed and wrote acoustically like they used to in the wiltern house, couldn’t that be another positive in his life?

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#95 Post by SR » Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:34 am

It's cute he equates music making, contributing to the cultural landscape, and providing overall joy to people as work. As if he should grind it out day in and day out for a sub living wage and be made to feel he should be grateful for it. But I get it...he's been in a cover band for 20 years.

There was a really cool story about the return of the Nothing Shocking Ibanez after it was lost in the early 90's....did I read he gifted it to Taylor's son? Along with Prince's Mad Cat, Froosh's sunburst Strat, and some others, it's a fuckin treasure.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#96 Post by clickie » Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:40 pm

Do you guys remember when Dave and P-Diddy teamed up.




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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#97 Post by clickie » Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:07 pm

Puff daddy said he called Dave personally on the phone and said I'm making a song and i'd like you to be a part of it. Dave said ok and showed up that day.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#98 Post by dannyboy » Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:32 am

SR wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:34 am
It's cute he equates music making, contributing to the cultural landscape, and providing overall joy to people as work. As if he should grind it out day in and day out for a sub living wage and be made to feel he should be grateful for it. But I get it...he's been in a cover band for 20 years.

There was a really cool story about the return of the Nothing Shocking Ibanez after it was lost in the early 90's....did I read he gifted it to Taylor's son? Along with Prince's Mad Cat, Froosh's sunburst Strat, and some others, it's a fuckin treasure.
To be fair, I dont think Eric, Perry or Stephen have been much more prolific. Even Martyn doesn't seem to do that much? Chaney is the one most committed to music.

And then, of their peers Fishbone are still really active and creative, as are RHCP. Bob Forrest doesn't seem to do anything but obviously Josh is always busy.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#99 Post by Tyler Durden » Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:36 am

dannyboy wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:32 am

To be fair, I dont think Eric, Perry or Stephen have been much more prolific. Even Martyn doesn't seem to do that much? Chaney is the one most committed to music.

And then, of their peers Fishbone are still really active and creative, as are RHCP. Bob Forrest doesn't seem to do anything but obviously Josh is always busy.
I don't think it's fair to throw Chaney in there. He's a session guy, not an artist.

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Re: Navarro: What makes him great?

#100 Post by someguy » Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:42 am

Tyler Durden wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:36 am
dannyboy wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:32 am

To be fair, I dont think Eric, Perry or Stephen have been much more prolific. Even Martyn doesn't seem to do that much? Chaney is the one most committed to music.

And then, of their peers Fishbone are still really active and creative, as are RHCP. Bob Forrest doesn't seem to do anything but obviously Josh is always busy.
I don't think it's fair to throw Chaney in there. He's a session guy, not an artist.
After TGEA Stephen did Summer Moon, Perry did Kind Heaven, and Eric released Life.Time (which I guess is more of a demo compilation rather than an actual album) and NHC is supposedly coming out soon. Sparse output from each member since 2011

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