Free will is an illusion....?

off-topic conversation unrelated to Jane's Addiction
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Hype
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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#161 Post by Hype » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:29 pm

A personal example that's related to the above..

In a nutshell: my father was physically and mentally abusive to my mother and me. So, while I lived at home(until age 17)there were times when I seriously contemplated murdering him in some way..poisoning or smashing something over his head, stabbing, etc. I never actually went through with any of those things because I didn't think going to prison for him was worth it. Also, he was bigger and stronger (former boxer, partisan in WWII) and would have ended killing me instead. My mother continued to live in that situation for several more years, and 9 years ago, he tried to strangle her while she was sleeping(napping on the couch). She distracted him by saying she heard soemone knocking on the door(he was really hard of hearing) which he believed and went to check.She took advantage of her chance and ran out the back. Luckily her neighbour was out and she told him to call the police. A couple of years after that when the court order to keep away from her was up, he tried to coem back to the house. He had been living in a mens shelter for older guys(my father was in his late 70s at this time). I happened to be at my mother's place doing something for her while she was out, and the phone rang. I answered, and it was one of the staff from the shelter calling to say he was on his way to the house. He was probably less than an hour away. I had a moment of real panic, fear, and terror really. I calmed myself and had to make a plan. I knew my mother would freak out and probably have a heartache if she came home to find him in the house. I contemplated getting a weapon of some sort-hammer, knife, anything. I didn't do that though. Instead I locked all the doors and called the police. I explained the situation and begged them to come and said my mother's life was in real danger. I also mentioned a very fresh news story about a domestic violence situation where a husband murdered his wife ,which could have been prevented if her situation was taken seriously by the police. I said I didn't want my mother to be the next big news story. I think the suggestion of bad press for the police convinced them. While i was waiting for the cops and my father, my mother came home! Again, I had a moment of panic but I took charge and remained in control. I told her what was happening and she started to cry and shake. I told her that I called the police already and told her to go upstairs. She went upstairs and I watched by the front door for my father. While I was waiting, I thought what I would do if I had to confront him. Then, I saw him walking down the street to the house- an old, shrivelled man. I felt relief because I thought, if I have to, I can take him! I could easily kick him down the stairs or punch him in the face or something. Then, as he was walking up the drive, the cops pulled up. The timing couldn't have been more perfect. I had some courage and opened the door to tell him he couldn't come back(actually he could come back because my parents weren't divorced or even legally seperated) and to get out. He told me to get lost and ,"This is my house." Then the officers came up and started to talk to him(shout at him because he couldn'treally hear) and tell him that his wife didn;t want him and they suggested he leave. Now, the cop I talked to o nthe phone did say, my fatehr still had the right to enter the house, and as long as he wasn't violent or threatening, he had the right to be there, though morally wrong. Anyway, the police scared him and he left back to the mens shelter.
Jesus christ. Artemis, you know my dad's worked in Toronto women and children's shelter housing since the 80s?... the horror stories I've heard... :neutral: You are very lucky things turned out that way.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#162 Post by Artemis » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:35 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Jesus christ. Artemis, you know my dad's worked in Toronto women and children's shelter housing since the 80s?... the horror stories I've heard... :neutral: You are very lucky things turned out that way.
Yes, that's for sure!
I recall you mentioned he was a social worker. I didn't know he was working in the shelters though.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#163 Post by Hype » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:43 pm

Artemis wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Jesus christ. Artemis, you know my dad's worked in Toronto women and children's shelter housing since the 80s?... the horror stories I've heard... :neutral: You are very lucky things turned out that way.
Yes, that's for sure!
I recall you mentioned he was a social worker. I didn't know he was working in the shelters though.
Yeah, it's a tricky job for men to do, especially on the front lines, because the women are often extremely apprehensive about dealing with any men. The protocols for leaving the shelters are extremely strict, and the number of times they've had to call police because some asshole husband/ex-husband/boyfriend is trying to get inside the building... it's insane.

In the context of this thread... does it help at all to think of your father as someone who was really very confused (and obviously angry/frustrated; a very common thing for immigrants. My dad could tell you stories about the crazy Hungarian and Czech Roma that were coming into Toronto claiming refugee status about a decade ago...) and completely and utterly helpless to do any better on his own? He was, in a sense, trying *his* best to do whatever it was that he thought he was supposed to be doing in life... it's just a real tragedy that nothing caused him to change.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#164 Post by mockbee » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:02 pm

That is a terrifying story Artemis. I am glad that you were able to think clearly in such a traumatic situation. We are all surely wired just a certain way. It's a tragedy that abuse is so common.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#165 Post by Juana » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:41 pm

mockbee wrote:That is a terrifying story Artemis. I am glad that you were able to think clearly in such a traumatic situation. We are all surely wired just a certain way. It's a tragedy that abuse is so common.
I would keep my cool until someone struck me. Then I'm afraid the years of training would take over. Which in my old line of work was a benefit but there was an incident where someone was messing with my misses and I usually let her handle things as she is a tough one but he would not stop and I noticed they were gone. So I checked the lady's rest room and he was physically assaulting her so I went in there and got him in the back of the legs with my asp and pinned him until the security got in there and I let them handle it. That being said if it was a dark alley somewhere and I knew there was no security I would have hurt the guy pretty bad.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#166 Post by Hype » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:56 pm

Juana wrote:
mockbee wrote:That is a terrifying story Artemis. I am glad that you were able to think clearly in such a traumatic situation. We are all surely wired just a certain way. It's a tragedy that abuse is so common.
I would keep my cool until someone struck me. Then I'm afraid the years of training would take over. Which in my old line of work was a benefit but there was an incident where someone was messing with my misses and I usually let her handle things as she is a tough one but he would not stop and I noticed they were gone. So I checked the lady's rest room and he was physically assaulting her so I went in there and got him in the back of the legs with my asp and pinned him until the security got in there and I let them handle it. That being said if it was a dark alley somewhere and I knew there was no security I would have hurt the guy pretty bad.
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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#167 Post by Juana » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:07 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Juana wrote:
mockbee wrote:That is a terrifying story Artemis. I am glad that you were able to think clearly in such a traumatic situation. We are all surely wired just a certain way. It's a tragedy that abuse is so common.
I would keep my cool until someone struck me. Then I'm afraid the years of training would take over. Which in my old line of work was a benefit but there was an incident where someone was messing with my misses and I usually let her handle things as she is a tough one but he would not stop and I noticed they were gone. So I checked the lady's rest room and he was physically assaulting her so I went in there and got him in the back of the legs with my asp and pinned him until the security got in there and I let them handle it. That being said if it was a dark alley somewhere and I knew there was no security I would have hurt the guy pretty bad.
Image
:lolol: :lol: Not quite to that point but yeah.

But looking back I joined the military to rebel against my family, they're all very liberal but yet somewhat greedy its weird and when I joined the military which is something that none of them thought I should do and I had no reason to do it, but I did it and the only reason I can think of was to just go my own way, do my own thing. Not sure how that plays into this conversation but it has to say something, as a lot of my peers while still doing well seem STUCK.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#168 Post by mockbee » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:52 am

Juana wrote:

But looking back I joined the military to rebel against my family, they're all very liberal but yet somewhat greedy its weird and when I joined the military which is something that none of them thought I should do and I had no reason to do it, but I did it and the only reason I can think of was to just go my own way, do my own thing. Not sure how that plays into this conversation but it has to say something, as a lot of my peers while still doing well seem STUCK.

Juana, I believe you were meant to exercise your way. And that is what you did. I suppose some of us are meant to and others not........ STUCK is their way, I don't think it has to be though..... it just is. I believe we all have a different way that satisfies us emensely, just some have the ability to follow themselves, others not. And these ways can have tragic, tragic consequences.............. (see NYTimes article about the kid who killed his parents.......) So maybe it is good that we don't follow some of these notions.


I knew, without an ounce of doubt, that I was meant to be an architect since the age of 4 1/2. I am not joking, there was absolutely no doubt, I didn't even know what an Architect was , but I knew......... I have spent the following 31 years doggedly pursuing and acting and practicing this little notion I had when I was 4....... I can honestly say there hasn't been an ounce of doubt in my mind about my notion in my entire life. There is no free will and I couldn't be happier about that......

I too wanted to join the military when I was a kid. And my parents were hippies......:lol: I thought I was weak and undisciplined....... I thought the army would fix that, luckily I didn't join!

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#169 Post by Hype » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:56 am

From the way you describe it, Juana, you have a contrarian streak in you. I do too, so I get it. (I often make my life harder just to spite people and show them that life is easy and they suck :lol: No, wait, that was a Simpsons episode... and a confabulation... my life is often made harder because my contrarian personality causes me to defend crazy views and do crazy things.)

I would never have joined the military, but that's only because people always thought I needed discipline, when really what I needed was to be left to figure shit out on my own because I could already see that they didn't understand what I was thinking. :neutral: So in a way, I became ultra-liberal... though my parents are moderate liberals. :noclue: (I think the anti-discipline thing came from my dad treating his kids like they were clients at the shelter... :confused: )

I honestly believe there are no wrong or right choices. The path anyone takes is the one they took, and played a large role in who they are, so we should just try to understand why we've done what we've done, and what we want to do in the future.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#170 Post by Juana » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:44 am

mockbee wrote:
Juana wrote:

But looking back I joined the military to rebel against my family, they're all very liberal but yet somewhat greedy its weird and when I joined the military which is something that none of them thought I should do and I had no reason to do it, but I did it and the only reason I can think of was to just go my own way, do my own thing. Not sure how that plays into this conversation but it has to say something, as a lot of my peers while still doing well seem STUCK.

Juana, I believe you were meant to exercise your way. And that is what you did. I suppose some of us are meant to and others not........ STUCK is their way, I don't think it has to be though..... it just is. I believe we all have a different way that satisfies us emensely, just some have the ability to follow themselves, others not. And these ways can have tragic, tragic consequences.............. (see NYTimes article about the kid who killed his parents.......) So maybe it is good that we don't follow some of these notions.

I too wanted to join the military when I was a kid. And my parents were hippies......:lol: I thought I was weak and undisciplined....... I thought the army would fix that, luckily I didn't join!
The sad thing is my friends from home doing the same old shit are unhappy and seem to always say "you got out of this and now can visit" I can see how "keeping up appearances" weighs on them. It makes me sad. But its their life I do not tell them how to live it.

As for the service I got to see a lot of the world I would not have seen otherwise, I do not regret it even though I fucked up my elbow real bad. Have to enjoy the journey for what it is, surround yourself with people that you love and in the end hopefully you die happy.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#171 Post by Artemis » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:59 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Artemis wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Jesus christ. Artemis, you know my dad's worked in Toronto women and children's shelter housing since the 80s?... the horror stories I've heard... :neutral: You are very lucky things turned out that way.
Yes, that's for sure!
I recall you mentioned he was a social worker. I didn't know he was working in the shelters though.
Yeah, it's a tricky job for men to do, especially on the front lines, because the women are often extremely apprehensive about dealing with any men. The protocols for leaving the shelters are extremely strict, and the number of times they've had to call police because some asshole husband/ex-husband/boyfriend is trying to get inside the building... it's insane.

In the context of this thread... does it help at all to think of your father as someone who was really very confused (and obviously angry/frustrated; a very common thing for immigrants. My dad could tell you stories about the crazy Hungarian and Czech Roma that were coming into Toronto claiming refugee status about a decade ago...) and completely and utterly helpless to do any better on his own? He was, in a sense, trying *his* best to do whatever it was that he thought he was supposed to be doing in life... it's just a real tragedy that nothing caused him to change.
Neither his wife or child could cause him to change.

He was mentally ill for sure. From that point of view, I can say he did the best he could, but living through all the bad years, I was unable to think that way. He died almost 6 years ago, so I do have a closure in that I no longer feel angry or bitter. I also feel relief because I no longer have to deal with him. I don't feel guilty, or like I'm a bad person for saying that either. I accept that I can't change the past and that I never had the ideal father. I lived in survival mode most of the time and even now I am scarred. Both physically and mentally. I am always hyper-alert and have a hard time to relax. I am always aware of my environment and any highly atuned and sensitive to peoples' moods. I think it was the survival mode I was always in. My behavior was dictated by the mood my father was in. I could tell by how he walked into the house if it was going to be a bad day or not. I suppose the good thing that came out of my sensitivity to the moods of others is that I can be very diplomatic and easily get along with all types of people. It also makes me very good with dealing with difficult people. So, if I had free will, as I interpret it to mean, I would have bashed his head in with a hammer umpulsively and not thought that I was about to take a person's life. Some would have thought it was justifiable because it was self defence.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#172 Post by Hype » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:05 pm

I know far too many women for whom that hyper-aware state has become "normal". :no:

(It actually explains your marijuana/alcohol consumption pretty well... It could be a lot worse I guess...)

I think maybe you could have reacted more violently at one time, but it would have taken a very specific set of circumstances, which, luckily, never did actually happen. I think it shows that you have the good fortune of being someone who can deal with stress/struggle without completely losing it. Not that you should have had to... And there are many women (and men, for that matter) who don't handle it (abusive parents/spouses) so well.

You just reminded me... I was on a bus from Kingston to Toronto a while ago, and this woman was telling her life story to this other woman who was very obviously a heroin addict (or in a methadone program). It essentially involved being an abused child (her dad murdered her mom), ending up in group homes where she became more and more violent, hung out with the wrong men, got pregnant, attacked, beaten by her "boyfriends", drugs, etc., in and out of jail. Very clear anger-management issues (for good reason). She mentions that she got so angry at a "girlfriend" that she took off her stiletto heel and stabbed her eye out. :confused: Anyway, long story short, turns out she's on this bus coming all the way from out East (Nova Scotia) because she has a court date in Brampton, because she basically kidnapped her own son to get him away from his dad, who is an alcoholic abusive guy... and the whole thing was just so surreal. The story went on for over 3 hours. :confused:

The heroin-addict lady felt so bad she gave her money for a cab to get to Brampton because this woman couldn't figure out how to get there from Union Station even with clear instructions and a map. :neutral: :sad:

So yeah, I guess it could be worse.

I will never forget that woman or her story, because to me it's a clear example of how completely insane the world is, and how all that determines who you are, what you do, and where you end up is almost entirely out of your control. The only sense in which it's in your control is if you're lucky enough to get SOME breaks in your genetics/biology or your environment that allow some parts of your brain to be better than those of other people stuck in the same situations.

When Perry Farrell wrote: "Nobody made fun of Hitler?!"... I get the same feeling about situations like these: Nobody could figure out how to stop this?! Really? Why is this so difficult?

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#173 Post by Artemis » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:24 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:I know far too many women for whom that hyper-aware state has become "normal". :no:

(It actually explains your marijuana/alcohol consumption pretty well... It could be a lot worse I guess...)

I think maybe you could have reacted more violently at one time, but it would have taken a very specific set of circumstances, which, luckily, never did actually happen. I think it shows that you have the good fortune of being someone who can deal with stress/struggle without completely losing it. Not that you should have had to... And there are many women (and men, for that matter) who don't handle it (abusive parents/spouses) so well.
I think a person really has to accept that the past is fixed and can't change, only how we react to it. It's easier said than done, but for me, I rcognized I had no other way if I wanted to go forward. I'm not talking about forgiveness either. To be honest, I don't really understand that concept. I don't forgive the actions of my father nor will I forget. I do understand that due to his problems he was unable to be different than what he was.

As for marijuana and alcohol consumption...don't really smoke weed too much anymore, maybe a couple of puffs every 6 months or so. If I smoke regularly I become really paranoid and depressed, not to mention unmotivated. Alcohol, I do enjoy but I am not an alcohol. I could go that way if I am not careful. There was a time in my 20s where I was drinking pretty heavily. I could almost polish off a 26oz bottle of Scotch in a night. Now I am mostly a Saturday wino, rarely during the week. This weekend I am not drinking because the last few weekends were kind of excessive.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#174 Post by Hype » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:31 pm

Artemis wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:I know far too many women for whom that hyper-aware state has become "normal". :no:

(It actually explains your marijuana/alcohol consumption pretty well... It could be a lot worse I guess...)

I think maybe you could have reacted more violently at one time, but it would have taken a very specific set of circumstances, which, luckily, never did actually happen. I think it shows that you have the good fortune of being someone who can deal with stress/struggle without completely losing it. Not that you should have had to... And there are many women (and men, for that matter) who don't handle it (abusive parents/spouses) so well.
I think a person really has to accept that the past is fixed and can't change, only how we react to it. It's easier said than done, but for me, I rcognized I had no other way if I wanted to go forward. I'm not talking about forgiveness either. To be honest, I don't really understand that concept. I don't forgive the actions of my father nor will I forget. I do understand that due to his problems he was unable to be different than what he was.

As for marijuana and alcohol consumption...don't really smoke weed too much anymore, maybe a couple of puffs every 6 months or so. If I smoke regularly I become really paranoid and depressed, not to mention unmotivated. Alcohol, I do enjoy but I am not an alcohol. I could go that way if I am not careful. There was a time in my 20s where I was drinking pretty heavily. I could almost polish off a 26oz bottle of Scotch in a night. Now I am mostly a Saturday wino, rarely during the week. This weekend I am not drinking because the last few weekends were kind of excessive.
Yeah. I actually don't agree with Mockbee about forgiveness. I think understanding is far more important (and very different). I was talking to a Christian friend of mine who is a very good philosopher, and I said: "You know, someone once said that Spinoza's ethical philosophy sounds very Christian, and I think there's a sense in which that's true, but instead of 'Forgive them, they know not what they do.' Spinoza has changed that into 'Understand them, so that we can know why they do what they do. And fucking fix it.' And that makes a huge difference.
Alcohol, I do enjoy but I am not an alcohol.
:lol: Are you sure? But it's just a thing that happens... :drink:

I think that societies ought to try to find ways to create environments in which people can react better to bad things happening, if we can't get rid of the bad things. It really shouldn't be all on individuals. To me, thinking that it's up to individuals to deal with everything themselves, is a form of psychological torture we've inflicted on those who are already damaged. And it's a damned lie anyway. Most people who manage to cope successfully do so because of luck and, (which includes) good circumstances.

It's a big thing in Holocaustliteratur (in Germany especially).

You might enjoy the book The Emigrants by Sebald, if you haven't read it. It's the stories of five survivors of the holocaust each dealing with it completely differently.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#175 Post by Artemis » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
You just reminded me... I was on a bus from Kingston to Toronto a while ago, and this woman was telling her life story to this other woman who was very obviously a heroin addict (or in a methadone program). It essentially involved being an abused child (her dad murdered her mom), ending up in group homes where she became more and more violent, hung out with the wrong men, got pregnant, attacked, beaten by her "boyfriends", drugs, etc., in and out of jail. Very clear anger-management issues (for good reason). She mentions that she got so angry at a "girlfriend" that she took off her stiletto heel and stabbed her eye out. :confused: Anyway, long story short, turns out she's on this bus coming all the way from out East (Nova Scotia) because she has a court date in Brampton, because she basically kidnapped her own son to get him away from his dad, who is an alcoholic abusive guy... and the whole thing was just so surreal. The story went on for over 3 hours. :confused:

The heroin-addict lady felt so bad she gave her money for a cab to get to Brampton because this woman couldn't figure out how to get there from Union Station even with clear instructions and a map. :neutral: :sad:

So yeah, I guess it could be worse.

I will never forget that woman or her story, because to me it's a clear example of how completely insane the world is, and how all that determines who you are, what you do, and where you end up is almost entirely out of your control. The only sense in which it's in your control is if you're lucky enough to get SOME breaks in your genetics/biology or your environment that allow some parts of your brain to be better than those of other people stuck in the same situations.

When Perry Farrell wrote: "Nobody made fun of Hitler?!"... I get the same feeling about situations like these: Nobody could figure out how to stop this?! Really? Why is this so difficult?
I guess you just added this part I didn't see it.

I kind of went the opposite of the promiscuous woman who goes from one abusive man to the next. I didn't go that route because I didn't and don't trust men easily. I also from a young age said to myself that I would never be in the situation my mother was in.

As for getting breaks, I did in the sense that I lived in a fairly affleunt area which is considered to be a "good neighbourhood" with good schools. Part of dealing with my father meant that I left the house as much as I could to get away from our house. I spent a lot of time at my friends' houses who lived compeltely differently than I did. So, I was aware that there were other options and I recofnized that there was soemthing wrong in my house and how we lived - it wasn't normal. I'm sure other families had problems too, they were just different than mine. I also read a lot of books too. If I couldn't go to a friend's place I usually went to the library and got lost in the world of books. I also tried different religions which I ended up quitting. No joke, I had a brief stint in the Salvation Army as a "junior christian soldier". I was trying to play in the band, a trombone, but I didn't get into it. :lol:

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#176 Post by Artemis » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:47 pm

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
You might enjoy the book The Emigrants by Sebald, if you haven't read it. It's the stories of five survivors of the holocaust each dealing with it completely differently.
No, I haven't read it. Sounds good though, I will look for it.


Earlier I meant "alcoholic". And no, I am not one. :lol:

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#177 Post by Hype » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:50 pm

Artemis wrote:
Adurentibus Spina wrote:
You might enjoy the book The Emigrants by Sebald, if you haven't read it. It's the stories of five survivors of the holocaust each dealing with it completely differently.
No, I haven't read it. Sounds good though, I will look for it.


Earlier I meant "alcoholic". And no, I am not one. :lol:
I misdescribed the book because it's been years since I read it. They're just five emigrants. One of them is a Holocaust survivor.
The work is concerned very much with memory and feelings of foreignness. In two awkward scenes, Dr. Selwyn, whom the narrator does not know very well, confesses memories about his earlier life. He tells the story of a man he met in Switzerland in the time immediately prior to World War I, and how he felt a deeper companionship with this man than he ever did his wife. He also divulges how his family emigrated from Lithuania as a young boy, and tries to get the narrator to reveal how he feels being an emigrant from Germany living in England.

Bereyter is also portrayed as an outsider, even whilst living in his native Germany. As a Jew, he is a second-class citizen, and after the war, he is an intellectual living in a small provincial town.

Each of the section-title characters is an emigrant who left Germany (or a Germanised community). Sebald discusses how each left their native country and what they have become in their new lands. How much of Germany and emigration remains with them as they slide towards death under foreign skies? The narrator, whose biography appears similar to that of the author, is also an emigrant but his story is less explicit.

The character Max Aurach's last name, which is close to the name of his real-world inspiration, Frank Auerbach ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Auerbach ), was changed to Ferber in English translations

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#178 Post by Juana » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:21 pm

I still drink but stopped smoking pot since I have marinols now, I decided the time I tried to smoke after taking marinol and my "fingers, finged" (you have to get that reference) that I had gone too far.

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#179 Post by Hype » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:24 pm

Juana wrote:I still drink but stopped smoking pot since I have marinols now, I decided the time I tried to smoke after taking marinol and my "fingers, finged" (you have to get that reference) that I had gone too far.
:lol:

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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#180 Post by mockbee » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:04 am

Juana wrote:
The sad thing is my friends from home doing the same old shit are unhappy and seem to always say "you got out of this and now can visit" I can see how "keeping up appearances" weighs on them.
Do you mean that they never pursued a career that they were capable of and/or had a wife and kids they didn't want and didn't explore their interests or were they just stuck because they never attempted to do anything...?

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Juana
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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#181 Post by Juana » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:11 am

mockbee wrote:
Juana wrote:
The sad thing is my friends from home doing the same old shit are unhappy and seem to always say "you got out of this and now can visit" I can see how "keeping up appearances" weighs on them.
Do you mean that they never pursued a career that they were capable of and/or had a wife and kids they didn't want and didn't explore their interests or were they just stuck because they never attempted to do anything...?
They always had money they settled down but they have never traveled much (outside of touristy shit) and they just seem burnt out on life. I have experienced a lot of good and bad and I think that they growing up when we were surfing and skating and doing whatever "lost their dinosaur" like in Step Brothers.

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mockbee
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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#182 Post by mockbee » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:26 am

Adurentibus Spina wrote:
Yeah. I actually don't agree with Mockbee about forgiveness. I think understanding is far more important (and very different). I was talking to a Christian friend of mine who is a very good philosopher, and I said: "You know, someone once said that Spinoza's ethical philosophy sounds very Christian, and I think there's a sense in which that's true, but instead of 'Forgive them, they know not what they do.' Spinoza has changed that into 'Understand them, so that we can know why they do what they do. And fucking fix it.' And that makes a huge difference.
This is interesting. I actually don't think enough bad stuff has ever happened to me to really understand the full ramifications of 'forgiveness'..... And I hope I am lucky enough for it to stay that way. I have certainly been to some very low and dire places in my own life, but those times I surely inflicted on myself.

The worst trauma I have endured, not self inflicted, has been at the hands of some individuals on a particularly nasty trip to Canada and at the hands of some nasty New Zealanders....... not your typical culprits. :lol:

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Juana
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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#183 Post by Juana » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:37 am

NEVER... TRUST... A... KIWI

:lol:

But seriously I had way to much fun with a bunch of people from NZ and then when I went to my friend's parents bed and breakfast close to Lake Pupuke I had a blast.. but those fuckers took pictures!!

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Hype
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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#184 Post by Hype » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:23 am

Well, for one, it doesn't make any sense to forgive a psychopath. It adds nothing, and it may just not be physically possible for your brain to pull that off.

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Artemis
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Re: Free will is an illusion....?

#185 Post by Artemis » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:56 pm

From the 'We Fucking Love Atheism' site...

Image

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