Free will is an illusion....?

[Hype]

LOL just make sure none of those friends has a pig farm...

I guess this was a response to my post about challenging my friends to murder me?

Yeah, really... but the idea isn't for them to actually attempt to try, but to recognize the force of their (moral) character on what they are actually able to choose to do. They can't actually *choose* to murder me, because there isn't anything in the past that suffices to cause them to do so.

Try arbitrarily willing yourself into a murderous rage... it's pretty difficult. Not even method actors can really pull that off.

I will not delve into this but if I knew someone WANTED to die I would do it out of loyalty.

This, though, wouldn't be murder (except maybe technically legally). A desire to fulfill a loved one's wish to end their life, produced from compassion, empathy, loyalty, etc., is far difference than a freely induced, unprovoked, "chosen" feeling of uncaused rage directed at a person for no other reason at all than that they asked you to freely choose to do it (which of course for some people may be enough a trigger, in combination with their bodily states, but this again wouldn't be free).

The fact that your view here is intelligible to you (and to me) leads me to believe that not only is it not something you choose from free will, but it is something you MUST deeply identify with because of your particular moral character, which you did not choose.

As for the murderous rage it seems we're built to survive and not just randomly kill (obviously except the % that are socio/pyschopaths and violent) but I think if anyone felt their lively hood was threatened in ANY shape they would kill. Even if it was just a 1% possibility... so what makes us not weigh the other 99% in that situation? I mean in that situation there are more reasons not to snap than there are to go on a rampage. I know why it happens from a clinical point of view... but those feelings were they always there? were they developed? or was it just a person that didn't want to lose their pool in the back yard?

I agree with your thought that we aren't built, generally, to randomly kill (it isn't evolutionarily adaptive). But I don't agree that ANYONE would kill if they felt their livelihood was threatened. Maybe I'm wrong about myself, but I don't think I would.

I have been asked by people the following question which I find very strange: how come the Jews allowed themselves to be systematically slaughtered so easily in the Holocaust? Why didn't they fight back?
The answer is of course that many did fight back, but the power imbalance was stark from the beginning. When German troops have surrounded you, have a gun to your wife or daughter's head... it's not so easy to just "kill".

As for the laws of nature we want a structure, housing, food, reproduce, etc... but why the need to just one up everyone else in the community?

Things like that make me think that because man will NEVER know/understand ALL the laws of nature that some of the other views are flawed... not wrong, but not 100%.. just thousands of years of educated guessing.

Well, it isn't quite "guessing". But you are right to be skeptical about what exactly the "laws of nature", or the propositions we call by that phrase, actually are. There is a philosopher named Nancy Cartwright (not the same woman as Bart Simpson's voice) who has argued for decades that the laws of nature are not real. But she means something technical. For scientists it isn't about establishing absolute certainty, but about establishing the common features of regularities we observe in nature. So when you see the planets orbit the Sun, you try to find a way to symbolize the paths they take, and this produces a pattern with such a deep regularity that we can derive laws of gravitation from it. The reason we can call it a 'law' is that we have discovered something which shows itself to be applicable universally, not just in some small area of the universe. Things which are only applicable sometimes, or in some places, are not laws of nature. So we do have ways of trying to establish truths about all things in the universe. The fact that after Newton it took LaPlace and, (among others) eventually, Einstein, to fine-tune the details of the abstract symbolic representation we have for the laws we observe about planetary motion and light, and other things doesn't mean we're just "guessing", it just means that the scientific method proceeds (how fitting) methodically, aiming at higher levels of accuracy over time. There are, however, certain foundational principles which probably aren't questionable. These, in my view, are certain very basic logical laws. There may be only a couple, and they aren't necessarily the symbolic laws of modern "logic" as we have it. Something like A = A & A does not = not-A, and if P implies Q, then if P, then Q. Those are not observed laws, but laws which are integral to making sense of the universe at all.

[Juana]

I believe everyone will reach their breaking point and do what they needed to ensure survival. If you do not have that survival instinct like the rest of the natural world, then wouldn't that be defying the "laws of nature"? Or is that person making a choice to ignore the most primal instinct?

[mockbee]

I believe everyone will reach their breaking point and do what they needed to ensure survival. If you do not have that survival instinct like the rest of the natural world, then wouldn't that be defying the "laws of nature"? Or is that person making a choice to ignore the most primal instinct?

Some people just die, very little fight.....

What about those ladies at the gym....?

Aren't they just effectively dying...... many people I don't believe are truly aware of true threats...... Another reason for no free will!..... I mean we careen down the highway at ridiculous speeds while doing all manners of other stuff.....o'd say that is a HUGE risk... You have to ignore instincts all the time..........

[Juana]

But that is what I mean animals for example are bound to their instincts and while we're technically mammals, if we can ignore our instincts and do something incredibly stupid there has to be some choice in there. I mean people know that driving down the highway and texting is bad but they do it anyway. So if its not free will could it be the lack of rational thought?

As for the girls at the gym don't get me back on that.

[Hype]

I believe everyone will reach their breaking point and do what they needed to ensure survival. If you do not have that survival instinct like the rest of the natural world, then wouldn't that be defying the "laws of nature"? Or is that person making a choice to ignore the most primal instinct?

It is true that, in a sense, everyone is striving (as Mockbee nicely suggested earlier in the discussion) to continue existing. It's also true that this could be described in evolutionary/biological terms as a kind of law. Hobbes, back in 1660 or so, actually calls it "The first Law of Nature":

CHAPTER XIV. OF THE FIRST AND SECOND NATURALL LAWES, AND OF CONTRACTS

Right Of Nature What

The RIGHT OF NATURE, which Writers commonly call Jus Naturale, is the Liberty each man hath, to use his own power, as he will himselfe, for the preservation of his own Nature; that is to say, of his own Life; and consequently, of doing any thing, which in his own Judgement, and Reason, hee shall conceive to be the aptest means thereunto.

I do not think it follows from this that any given individual will, if their life is threatened, kill someone, or become murderous. We agree that there is this necessary fact that each of us is *trying* to continue to survive, but the implications of this for what we are compelled to do in a particular instance are not at all clear. There is no law of (human) nature which says ONLY: "If my life is sufficiently threatened by S, kill S." Laws are more general than this. They are something more like: "If my life is threatened by something, I will react in such a way as I can imagine will remove this threat." Put this way, it doesn't imply killing a person, necessarily, though it also doesn't necessarily rule it out.

Does that make sense? The response will depend on what that person sees as their available options, and which of these he/she thinks is best at the time. Sometimes it's better to run like hell than to stand and fight.

I think this just is what you were saying anyway. And interestingly, Hobbes (essentially the first modern political philosopher, but who is also a determinist) describes what we do under that law as "Liberty each man hath, to use his own power, as he will himselfe". This might *seem* to endorse the idea that when people act according to that law, they're exercising "free will". And actually, this would be a charitable interpretation of LJF's repetitive insistence that when he makes decisions he thinks are good, he's using 'free will'. But Hobbes CERTAINLY didn't believe that that is what this was. His description is actually a RE-description of what we would have thought was free will in law-like terms. This allows us to describe and to predict behaviour, rather than leave it unexplained and capricious.

[Juana]

So they make a choice based on what they see in the situation?

The only reason I bring in other mammals (nature) in this is because while we can make choices based on experiences and our instincts, animals like dolphins do this as well, but then occasionally will do something to make the science community do the "wtf?" I'm sure if they can do it then humans can do it as well, and we will study it but what if there is no rhyme or reason to it nothing that we can find.. Topics like this make me think of the end of I Robot movie.

[Hype]

So they make a choice based on what they see in the situation?

The only reason I bring in other mammals (nature) in this is because while we can make choices based on experiences and our instincts, animals like dolphins do this as well, but then occasionally will do something to make the science community do the "wtf?" I'm sure if they can do it then humans can do it as well, and we will study it but what if there is no rhyme or reason to it nothing that we can find.. Topics like this make me think of the end of I Robot movie.

This is good. My view is, as you might have guessed already, that there is nothing 'special' about humans. I place humans and other animals on a spectrum of how complex they are capable of thinking. And, in fact, my view is crazier than that, since I don't think we can draw a principled distinction between animals with very simple nervous systems and plants/fungi with proto-nervous-systems. I attribute a kind of rudimentary representation of reality to literally everything in the universe. I take this to be a totally natural phenomenon, and so something we can do science with. That doesn't mean that I think rocks are conscious. I take 'consciousness' to be a vague term describing a certain kind of very complex thinking (i.e., things like awareness of perceptions and ability to represent the future as possible), but not something which is distinct from the simpler sorts of thinking in any other way.

So yes, I think it's true that people make choices based on what they see in situations, but what is really tricky for "free will" is whether or not if a person sees TWO possibilities, they are in some sense FREE (or "able"/"capable") to choose one or the other in a way that isn't DETERMINED by some other fact that is already true, like some biological or environmental cause.

It's not enough for "free will" to say "well, they chose what they thought was best", because if it wasn't possible for them to choose anything else, then they necessarily chose what they did. How could that be "free will"? A "free will" becomes unnecessary here.

[mockbee]

The idea is this: if you recognize that people aren't freely choosing to be assholes or hurt you or others, or to make bad decisions, but are being caused by prior events which can be known, then it follows that if we want people to be different than they are, we should accept that they have been caused to be the way they are in specific ways, and try to remedy these things in the future, instead of hurting ourselves or acting rashly in the present because we do not understand what is going on.

yeah, well, I knew that already and I do forgive and have forgiven a lot of things based on this kind of rationale but you can only do that to a point. I mean you can't keep forgiving a guy who continually steals a 100 dollars from you every week because his dad was in that "business" as well

I'm realizing that there is no limit to forgiveness. I forgive everyone for all future events. I acquiesce my notion that I have any control over future events. I will strive to do my best and approach events in my life acutely utilizing my past experiences and valid external insights to my greatest advantage..........everything else is far, far, far beyond my control. And that is glorious. No more worries! None! That is everything!

I never have a reason to be angry again. EVER! [not to say it always plays out that because I am certainly not perfect]. But ever since I have employed this outlook, 95% of the time I am completely calm and happy and often joyous.

Regarding the guy who steals $100 every week from you; I have a question.... Why wouldn't you take the first experience as a lesson and modify your actions to avoid future occurences? Hmmmmmmmm..... Every time we get angry we are missing an opportunity to learn something.........Being angry is our own personal mini protest against the entire universe and everything that is and always will be......who's going to win that one.....?

[Hype]

Mockbee you REALLY REALLY REALLY should read "The Spinoza of Market Street". You'll like it. It took me all of half and hour yesterday.

[Artemis]

I believe everyone will reach their breaking point and do what they needed to ensure survival. If you do not have that survival instinct like the rest of the natural world, then wouldn't that be defying the "laws of nature"? Or is that person making a choice to ignore the most primal instinct?

It is true that, in a sense, everyone is striving (as Mockbee nicely suggested earlier in the discussion) to continue existing. It's also true that this could be described in evolutionary/biological terms as a kind of law. Hobbes, back in 1660 or so, actually calls it "The first Law of Nature":

CHAPTER XIV. OF THE FIRST AND SECOND NATURALL LAWES, AND OF CONTRACTS

Right Of Nature What

The RIGHT OF NATURE, which Writers commonly call Jus Naturale, is the Liberty each man hath, to use his own power, as he will himselfe, for the preservation of his own Nature; that is to say, of his own Life; and consequently, of doing any thing, which in his own Judgement, and Reason, hee shall conceive to be the aptest means thereunto.

I do not think it follows from this that any given individual will, if their life is threatened, kill someone, or become murderous. We agree that there is this necessary fact that each of us is *trying* to continue to survive, but the implications of this for what we are compelled to do in a particular instance are not at all clear. There is no law of (human) nature which says ONLY: "If my life is sufficiently threatened by S, kill S." Laws are more general than this. They are something more like: "If my life is threatened by something, I will react in such a way as I can imagine will remove this threat." Put this way, it doesn't imply killing a person, necessarily, though it also doesn't necessarily rule it out.

Does that make sense? The response will depend on what that person sees as their available options, and which of these he/she thinks is best at the time. Sometimes it's better to run like hell than to stand and fight.

A personal example that's related to the above..

In a nutshell: my father was physically and mentally abusive to my mother and me. So, while I lived at home(until age 17)there were times when I seriously contemplated murdering him in some way..poisoning or smashing something over his head, stabbing, etc. I never actually went through with any of those things because I didn't think going to prison for him was worth it. Also, he was bigger and stronger (former boxer, partisan in WWII) and would have ended killing me instead. My mother continued to live in that situation for several more years, and 9 years ago, he tried to strangle her while she was sleeping(napping on the couch). She distracted him by saying she heard soemone knocking on the door(he was really hard of hearing) which he believed and went to check.She took advantage of her chance and ran out the back. Luckily her neighbour was out and she told him to call the police. A couple of years after that when the court order to keep away from her was up, he tried to coem back to the house. He had been living in a mens shelter for older guys(my father was in his late 70s at this time). I happened to be at my mother's place doing something for her while she was out, and the phone rang. I answered, and it was one of the staff from the shelter calling to say he was on his way to the house. He was probably less than an hour away. I had a moment of real panic, fear, and terror really. I calmed myself and had to make a plan. I knew my mother would freak out and probably have a heartache if she came home to find him in the house. I contemplated getting a weapon of some sort-hammer, knife, anything. I didn't do that though. Instead I locked all the doors and called the police. I explained the situation and begged them to come and said my mother's life was in real danger. I also mentioned a very fresh news story about a domestic violence situation where a husband murdered his wife ,which could have been prevented if her situation was taken seriously by the police. I said I didn't want my mother to be the next big news story. I think the suggestion of bad press for the police convinced them. While i was waiting for the cops and my father, my mother came home! Again, I had a moment of panic but I took charge and remained in control. I told her what was happening and she started to cry and shake. I told her that I called the police already and told her to go upstairs. She went upstairs and I watched by the front door for my father. While I was waiting, I thought what I would do if I had to confront him. Then, I saw him walking down the street to the house- an old, shrivelled man. I felt relief because I thought, if I have to, I can take him! I could easily kick him down the stairs or punch him in the face or something. Then, as he was walking up the drive, the cops pulled up. The timing couldn't have been more perfect. I had some courage and opened the door to tell him he couldn't come back(actually he could come back because my parents weren't divorced or even legally seperated) and to get out. He told me to get lost and ,"This is my house." Then the officers came up and started to talk to him(shout at him because he couldn'treally hear) and tell him that his wife didn;t want him and they suggested he leave. Now, the cop I talked to o nthe phone did say, my fatehr still had the right to enter the house, and as long as he wasn't violent or threatening, he had the right to be there, though morally wrong. Anyway, the police scared him and he left back to the mens shelter.

[Hype]

A personal example that's related to the above..

In a nutshell: my father was physically and mentally abusive to my mother and me. So, while I lived at home(until age 17)there were times when I seriously contemplated murdering him in some way..poisoning or smashing something over his head, stabbing, etc. I never actually went through with any of those things because I didn't think going to prison for him was worth it. Also, he was bigger and stronger (former boxer, partisan in WWII) and would have ended killing me instead. My mother continued to live in that situation for several more years, and 9 years ago, he tried to strangle her while she was sleeping(napping on the couch). She distracted him by saying she heard soemone knocking on the door(he was really hard of hearing) which he believed and went to check.She took advantage of her chance and ran out the back. Luckily her neighbour was out and she told him to call the police. A couple of years after that when the court order to keep away from her was up, he tried to coem back to the house. He had been living in a mens shelter for older guys(my father was in his late 70s at this time). I happened to be at my mother's place doing something for her while she was out, and the phone rang. I answered, and it was one of the staff from the shelter calling to say he was on his way to the house. He was probably less than an hour away. I had a moment of real panic, fear, and terror really. I calmed myself and had to make a plan. I knew my mother would freak out and probably have a heartache if she came home to find him in the house. I contemplated getting a weapon of some sort-hammer, knife, anything. I didn't do that though. Instead I locked all the doors and called the police. I explained the situation and begged them to come and said my mother's life was in real danger. I also mentioned a very fresh news story about a domestic violence situation where a husband murdered his wife ,which could have been prevented if her situation was taken seriously by the police. I said I didn't want my mother to be the next big news story. I think the suggestion of bad press for the police convinced them. While i was waiting for the cops and my father, my mother came home! Again, I had a moment of panic but I took charge and remained in control. I told her what was happening and she started to cry and shake. I told her that I called the police already and told her to go upstairs. She went upstairs and I watched by the front door for my father. While I was waiting, I thought what I would do if I had to confront him. Then, I saw him walking down the street to the house- an old, shrivelled man. I felt relief because I thought, if I have to, I can take him! I could easily kick him down the stairs or punch him in the face or something. Then, as he was walking up the drive, the cops pulled up. The timing couldn't have been more perfect. I had some courage and opened the door to tell him he couldn't come back(actually he could come back because my parents weren't divorced or even legally seperated) and to get out. He told me to get lost and ,"This is my house." Then the officers came up and started to talk to him(shout at him because he couldn'treally hear) and tell him that his wife didn;t want him and they suggested he leave. Now, the cop I talked to o nthe phone did say, my fatehr still had the right to enter the house, and as long as he wasn't violent or threatening, he had the right to be there, though morally wrong. Anyway, the police scared him and he left back to the mens shelter.

Jesus christ. Artemis, you know my dad's worked in Toronto women and children's shelter housing since the 80s?... the horror stories I've heard... You are very lucky things turned out that way.

[Artemis]

Jesus christ. Artemis, you know my dad's worked in Toronto women and children's shelter housing since the 80s?... the horror stories I've heard... You are very lucky things turned out that way.

Yes, that's for sure!
I recall you mentioned he was a social worker. I didn't know he was working in the shelters though.

[Hype]

Jesus christ. Artemis, you know my dad's worked in Toronto women and children's shelter housing since the 80s?... the horror stories I've heard... You are very lucky things turned out that way.

Yes, that's for sure!
I recall you mentioned he was a social worker. I didn't know he was working in the shelters though.

Yeah, it's a tricky job for men to do, especially on the front lines, because the women are often extremely apprehensive about dealing with any men. The protocols for leaving the shelters are extremely strict, and the number of times they've had to call police because some asshole husband/ex-husband/boyfriend is trying to get inside the building... it's insane.

In the context of this thread... does it help at all to think of your father as someone who was really very confused (and obviously angry/frustrated; a very common thing for immigrants. My dad could tell you stories about the crazy Hungarian and Czech Roma that were coming into Toronto claiming refugee status about a decade ago...) and completely and utterly helpless to do any better on his own? He was, in a sense, trying *his* best to do whatever it was that he thought he was supposed to be doing in life... it's just a real tragedy that nothing caused him to change.

[mockbee]

That is a terrifying story Artemis. I am glad that you were able to think clearly in such a traumatic situation. We are all surely wired just a certain way. It's a tragedy that abuse is so common.

[Juana]

That is a terrifying story Artemis. I am glad that you were able to think clearly in such a traumatic situation. We are all surely wired just a certain way. It's a tragedy that abuse is so common.

I would keep my cool until someone struck me. Then I'm afraid the years of training would take over. Which in my old line of work was a benefit but there was an incident where someone was messing with my misses and I usually let her handle things as she is a tough one but he would not stop and I noticed they were gone. So I checked the lady's rest room and he was physically assaulting her so I went in there and got him in the back of the legs with my asp and pinned him until the security got in there and I let them handle it. That being said if it was a dark alley somewhere and I knew there was no security I would have hurt the guy pretty bad.

[Hype]

That is a terrifying story Artemis. I am glad that you were able to think clearly in such a traumatic situation. We are all surely wired just a certain way. It's a tragedy that abuse is so common.

I would keep my cool until someone struck me. Then I'm afraid the years of training would take over. Which in my old line of work was a benefit but there was an incident where someone was messing with my misses and I usually let her handle things as she is a tough one but he would not stop and I noticed they were gone. So I checked the lady's rest room and he was physically assaulting her so I went in there and got him in the back of the legs with my asp and pinned him until the security got in there and I let them handle it. That being said if it was a dark alley somewhere and I knew there was no security I would have hurt the guy pretty bad.

[Juana]

That is a terrifying story Artemis. I am glad that you were able to think clearly in such a traumatic situation. We are all surely wired just a certain way. It's a tragedy that abuse is so common.

I would keep my cool until someone struck me. Then I'm afraid the years of training would take over. Which in my old line of work was a benefit but there was an incident where someone was messing with my misses and I usually let her handle things as she is a tough one but he would not stop and I noticed they were gone. So I checked the lady's rest room and he was physically assaulting her so I went in there and got him in the back of the legs with my asp and pinned him until the security got in there and I let them handle it. That being said if it was a dark alley somewhere and I knew there was no security I would have hurt the guy pretty bad.

Not quite to that point but yeah.

But looking back I joined the military to rebel against my family, they're all very liberal but yet somewhat greedy its weird and when I joined the military which is something that none of them thought I should do and I had no reason to do it, but I did it and the only reason I can think of was to just go my own way, do my own thing. Not sure how that plays into this conversation but it has to say something, as a lot of my peers while still doing well seem STUCK.

[mockbee]

But looking back I joined the military to rebel against my family, they're all very liberal but yet somewhat greedy its weird and when I joined the military which is something that none of them thought I should do and I had no reason to do it, but I did it and the only reason I can think of was to just go my own way, do my own thing. Not sure how that plays into this conversation but it has to say something, as a lot of my peers while still doing well seem STUCK.

Juana, I believe you were meant to exercise your way. And that is what you did. I suppose some of us are meant to and others not........ STUCK is their way, I don't think it has to be though..... it just is. I believe we all have a different way that satisfies us emensely, just some have the ability to follow themselves, others not. And these ways can have tragic, tragic consequences.............. (see NYTimes article about the kid who killed his parents.......) So maybe it is good that we don't follow some of these notions.


I knew, without an ounce of doubt, that I was meant to be an architect since the age of 4 1/2. I am not joking, there was absolutely no doubt, I didn't even know what an Architect was , but I knew......... I have spent the following 31 years doggedly pursuing and acting and practicing this little notion I had when I was 4....... I can honestly say there hasn't been an ounce of doubt in my mind about my notion in my entire life. There is no free will and I couldn't be happier about that......

I too wanted to join the military when I was a kid. And my parents were hippies...... I thought I was weak and undisciplined....... I thought the army would fix that, luckily I didn't join!

[Hype]

From the way you describe it, Juana, you have a contrarian streak in you. I do too, so I get it. (I often make my life harder just to spite people and show them that life is easy and they suck No, wait, that was a Simpsons episode... and a confabulation... my life is often made harder because my contrarian personality causes me to defend crazy views and do crazy things.)

I would never have joined the military, but that's only because people always thought I needed discipline, when really what I needed was to be left to figure shit out on my own because I could already see that they didn't understand what I was thinking. So in a way, I became ultra-liberal... though my parents are moderate liberals. (I think the anti-discipline thing came from my dad treating his kids like they were clients at the shelter... )

I honestly believe there are no wrong or right choices. The path anyone takes is the one they took, and played a large role in who they are, so we should just try to understand why we've done what we've done, and what we want to do in the future.

[Juana]

But looking back I joined the military to rebel against my family, they're all very liberal but yet somewhat greedy its weird and when I joined the military which is something that none of them thought I should do and I had no reason to do it, but I did it and the only reason I can think of was to just go my own way, do my own thing. Not sure how that plays into this conversation but it has to say something, as a lot of my peers while still doing well seem STUCK.

Juana, I believe you were meant to exercise your way. And that is what you did. I suppose some of us are meant to and others not........ STUCK is their way, I don't think it has to be though..... it just is. I believe we all have a different way that satisfies us emensely, just some have the ability to follow themselves, others not. And these ways can have tragic, tragic consequences.............. (see NYTimes article about the kid who killed his parents.......) So maybe it is good that we don't follow some of these notions.

I too wanted to join the military when I was a kid. And my parents were hippies...... I thought I was weak and undisciplined....... I thought the army would fix that, luckily I didn't join!

The sad thing is my friends from home doing the same old shit are unhappy and seem to always say "you got out of this and now can visit" I can see how "keeping up appearances" weighs on them. It makes me sad. But its their life I do not tell them how to live it.

As for the service I got to see a lot of the world I would not have seen otherwise, I do not regret it even though I fucked up my elbow real bad. Have to enjoy the journey for what it is, surround yourself with people that you love and in the end hopefully you die happy.

[Artemis]

Jesus christ. Artemis, you know my dad's worked in Toronto women and children's shelter housing since the 80s?... the horror stories I've heard... You are very lucky things turned out that way.

Yes, that's for sure!
I recall you mentioned he was a social worker. I didn't know he was working in the shelters though.

Yeah, it's a tricky job for men to do, especially on the front lines, because the women are often extremely apprehensive about dealing with any men. The protocols for leaving the shelters are extremely strict, and the number of times they've had to call police because some asshole husband/ex-husband/boyfriend is trying to get inside the building... it's insane.

In the context of this thread... does it help at all to think of your father as someone who was really very confused (and obviously angry/frustrated; a very common thing for immigrants. My dad could tell you stories about the crazy Hungarian and Czech Roma that were coming into Toronto claiming refugee status about a decade ago...) and completely and utterly helpless to do any better on his own? He was, in a sense, trying *his* best to do whatever it was that he thought he was supposed to be doing in life... it's just a real tragedy that nothing caused him to change.

Neither his wife or child could cause him to change.

He was mentally ill for sure. From that point of view, I can say he did the best he could, but living through all the bad years, I was unable to think that way. He died almost 6 years ago, so I do have a closure in that I no longer feel angry or bitter. I also feel relief because I no longer have to deal with him. I don't feel guilty, or like I'm a bad person for saying that either. I accept that I can't change the past and that I never had the ideal father. I lived in survival mode most of the time and even now I am scarred. Both physically and mentally. I am always hyper-alert and have a hard time to relax. I am always aware of my environment and any highly atuned and sensitive to peoples' moods. I think it was the survival mode I was always in. My behavior was dictated by the mood my father was in. I could tell by how he walked into the house if it was going to be a bad day or not. I suppose the good thing that came out of my sensitivity to the moods of others is that I can be very diplomatic and easily get along with all types of people. It also makes me very good with dealing with difficult people. So, if I had free will, as I interpret it to mean, I would have bashed his head in with a hammer umpulsively and not thought that I was about to take a person's life. Some would have thought it was justifiable because it was self defence.

[Hype]

I know far too many women for whom that hyper-aware state has become "normal".

(It actually explains your marijuana/alcohol consumption pretty well... It could be a lot worse I guess...)

I think maybe you could have reacted more violently at one time, but it would have taken a very specific set of circumstances, which, luckily, never did actually happen. I think it shows that you have the good fortune of being someone who can deal with stress/struggle without completely losing it. Not that you should have had to... And there are many women (and men, for that matter) who don't handle it (abusive parents/spouses) so well.

You just reminded me... I was on a bus from Kingston to Toronto a while ago, and this woman was telling her life story to this other woman who was very obviously a heroin addict (or in a methadone program). It essentially involved being an abused child (her dad murdered her mom), ending up in group homes where she became more and more violent, hung out with the wrong men, got pregnant, attacked, beaten by her "boyfriends", drugs, etc., in and out of jail. Very clear anger-management issues (for good reason). She mentions that she got so angry at a "girlfriend" that she took off her stiletto heel and stabbed her eye out. Anyway, long story short, turns out she's on this bus coming all the way from out East (Nova Scotia) because she has a court date in Brampton, because she basically kidnapped her own son to get him away from his dad, who is an alcoholic abusive guy... and the whole thing was just so surreal. The story went on for over 3 hours.

The heroin-addict lady felt so bad she gave her money for a cab to get to Brampton because this woman couldn't figure out how to get there from Union Station even with clear instructions and a map.

So yeah, I guess it could be worse.

I will never forget that woman or her story, because to me it's a clear example of how completely insane the world is, and how all that determines who you are, what you do, and where you end up is almost entirely out of your control. The only sense in which it's in your control is if you're lucky enough to get SOME breaks in your genetics/biology or your environment that allow some parts of your brain to be better than those of other people stuck in the same situations.

When Perry Farrell wrote: "Nobody made fun of Hitler?!"... I get the same feeling about situations like these: Nobody could figure out how to stop this?! Really? Why is this so difficult?

[Artemis]

I know far too many women for whom that hyper-aware state has become "normal".

(It actually explains your marijuana/alcohol consumption pretty well... It could be a lot worse I guess...)

I think maybe you could have reacted more violently at one time, but it would have taken a very specific set of circumstances, which, luckily, never did actually happen. I think it shows that you have the good fortune of being someone who can deal with stress/struggle without completely losing it. Not that you should have had to... And there are many women (and men, for that matter) who don't handle it (abusive parents/spouses) so well.

I think a person really has to accept that the past is fixed and can't change, only how we react to it. It's easier said than done, but for me, I rcognized I had no other way if I wanted to go forward. I'm not talking about forgiveness either. To be honest, I don't really understand that concept. I don't forgive the actions of my father nor will I forget. I do understand that due to his problems he was unable to be different than what he was.

As for marijuana and alcohol consumption...don't really smoke weed too much anymore, maybe a couple of puffs every 6 months or so. If I smoke regularly I become really paranoid and depressed, not to mention unmotivated. Alcohol, I do enjoy but I am not an alcohol. I could go that way if I am not careful. There was a time in my 20s where I was drinking pretty heavily. I could almost polish off a 26oz bottle of Scotch in a night. Now I am mostly a Saturday wino, rarely during the week. This weekend I am not drinking because the last few weekends were kind of excessive.

[Hype]

I know far too many women for whom that hyper-aware state has become "normal".

(It actually explains your marijuana/alcohol consumption pretty well... It could be a lot worse I guess...)

I think maybe you could have reacted more violently at one time, but it would have taken a very specific set of circumstances, which, luckily, never did actually happen. I think it shows that you have the good fortune of being someone who can deal with stress/struggle without completely losing it. Not that you should have had to... And there are many women (and men, for that matter) who don't handle it (abusive parents/spouses) so well.

I think a person really has to accept that the past is fixed and can't change, only how we react to it. It's easier said than done, but for me, I rcognized I had no other way if I wanted to go forward. I'm not talking about forgiveness either. To be honest, I don't really understand that concept. I don't forgive the actions of my father nor will I forget. I do understand that due to his problems he was unable to be different than what he was.

As for marijuana and alcohol consumption...don't really smoke weed too much anymore, maybe a couple of puffs every 6 months or so. If I smoke regularly I become really paranoid and depressed, not to mention unmotivated. Alcohol, I do enjoy but I am not an alcohol. I could go that way if I am not careful. There was a time in my 20s where I was drinking pretty heavily. I could almost polish off a 26oz bottle of Scotch in a night. Now I am mostly a Saturday wino, rarely during the week. This weekend I am not drinking because the last few weekends were kind of excessive.

Yeah. I actually don't agree with Mockbee about forgiveness. I think understanding is far more important (and very different). I was talking to a Christian friend of mine who is a very good philosopher, and I said: "You know, someone once said that Spinoza's ethical philosophy sounds very Christian, and I think there's a sense in which that's true, but instead of 'Forgive them, they know not what they do.' Spinoza has changed that into 'Understand them, so that we can know why they do what they do. And fucking fix it.' And that makes a huge difference.

Alcohol, I do enjoy but I am not an alcohol.

Are you sure? But it's just a thing that happens...

I think that societies ought to try to find ways to create environments in which people can react better to bad things happening, if we can't get rid of the bad things. It really shouldn't be all on individuals. To me, thinking that it's up to individuals to deal with everything themselves, is a form of psychological torture we've inflicted on those who are already damaged. And it's a damned lie anyway. Most people who manage to cope successfully do so because of luck and, (which includes) good circumstances.

It's a big thing in Holocaustliteratur (in Germany especially).

You might enjoy the book The Emigrants by Sebald, if you haven't read it. It's the stories of five survivors of the holocaust each dealing with it completely differently.

[Artemis]

You just reminded me... I was on a bus from Kingston to Toronto a while ago, and this woman was telling her life story to this other woman who was very obviously a heroin addict (or in a methadone program). It essentially involved being an abused child (her dad murdered her mom), ending up in group homes where she became more and more violent, hung out with the wrong men, got pregnant, attacked, beaten by her "boyfriends", drugs, etc., in and out of jail. Very clear anger-management issues (for good reason). She mentions that she got so angry at a "girlfriend" that she took off her stiletto heel and stabbed her eye out. Anyway, long story short, turns out she's on this bus coming all the way from out East (Nova Scotia) because she has a court date in Brampton, because she basically kidnapped her own son to get him away from his dad, who is an alcoholic abusive guy... and the whole thing was just so surreal. The story went on for over 3 hours.

The heroin-addict lady felt so bad she gave her money for a cab to get to Brampton because this woman couldn't figure out how to get there from Union Station even with clear instructions and a map.

So yeah, I guess it could be worse.

I will never forget that woman or her story, because to me it's a clear example of how completely insane the world is, and how all that determines who you are, what you do, and where you end up is almost entirely out of your control. The only sense in which it's in your control is if you're lucky enough to get SOME breaks in your genetics/biology or your environment that allow some parts of your brain to be better than those of other people stuck in the same situations.

When Perry Farrell wrote: "Nobody made fun of Hitler?!"... I get the same feeling about situations like these: Nobody could figure out how to stop this?! Really? Why is this so difficult?

I guess you just added this part I didn't see it.

I kind of went the opposite of the promiscuous woman who goes from one abusive man to the next. I didn't go that route because I didn't and don't trust men easily. I also from a young age said to myself that I would never be in the situation my mother was in.

As for getting breaks, I did in the sense that I lived in a fairly affleunt area which is considered to be a "good neighbourhood" with good schools. Part of dealing with my father meant that I left the house as much as I could to get away from our house. I spent a lot of time at my friends' houses who lived compeltely differently than I did. So, I was aware that there were other options and I recofnized that there was soemthing wrong in my house and how we lived - it wasn't normal. I'm sure other families had problems too, they were just different than mine. I also read a lot of books too. If I couldn't go to a friend's place I usually went to the library and got lost in the world of books. I also tried different religions which I ended up quitting. No joke, I had a brief stint in the Salvation Army as a "junior christian soldier". I was trying to play in the band, a trombone, but I didn't get into it.